I know a lot of people in the English-speaking traditionalist circles are thinking about the future at the moment. The decision of the Papa Stronsay fathers and brothers to seek reconciliation with Rome has certainly made many individuals sit up and ask questions. Coming on the back of events in June, and being followed so closely by Bishop Tissier and now Bishop Williamson’s remarks about the situation in the Church and with the SSPX, these questions are more urgent than ever.
I thought, therefore, that it would be useful for me to explain why, about four and half years ago, I decided to separate myself from the SSPX milieu. I do not offer these lines as a refutation of the SSPX case. Nor are they offered because I particularly like talking about myself, though I am as prone to what Bishop Williamson used to call Number-One-itis as the next man to be sure. I am simply thinking of other people who have made the same journey, and of others who would contemplate the same journey if only they thought it was possible.
I’ve made the journey, and this is how.
Imagine me in 2003, a younger and certainly a thinner chap, on the point of completing the translation of the biography of Archbishop Lefebvre (ABL from now on). It was a huge task which I still feel honoured to have undertaken, for however one disagrees with ABL, he was for most of his life an undoubtedly great servant of the Church. His errors, when they were errors, were made out of love for the Church. It was about this time that Fr Paul Aulagnier, the very first seminarian to ask ABL for help in the late 1960s, and these days with the Institute of the Good Shepherd, was drummed out of the SSPX. There were various reasons for this expulsion but one of these was an interview he gave to The Wanderer in which he said something that, for once, broke through my traditionalist view of the Church: he said that on their current course, the SSPX were on, or risked following, a schismatic trajectory.
It seems such an obvious thing now, but then it contradicted so many of my assumptions about how the SSPX would come to reconciliation. Not that these things were articulated clearly. Until the late 1990s I think I assumed that one of these days Rome would realise the great errors of the Council and turn to the SSPX for help, and the SSPX would come riding to the rescue. After the moment came and went of a potential reconciliation in 2001, I changed this view and began to imagine that the future reform of the Church might be something more piecemeal, and certainly not as glorious as a full vindication of ABL.
In the light of Aulagnier’s remarks, however, one thought began to press itself upon me: how does this SSPX story end? What logic actually brings the SSPX situation to a final conclusion? When the Church corrects all her errors, presumably …?
But is it not possible, I wondered, that in never coming to meet Rome, not necessarily halfway but at least somewhere along the path, the SSPX might never reconcile? Does the position of the SSPX not ignore the fact that solutions can often be very messy and painful? When I look back now, the SSPX position reminds me of the French monarchists who were invited to get involved in French Republican politics by Leo XIII in 1891. Many refused. Many still do. Their descendents are often, though not always, found among the ranks of the SSPX. They still hope for a restoration of the French monarchy, and they have done so for nearly 120 years since Leo XIII’s letter Au Milieu des Sollicitudes; indeed, since the death of the Duc de Chambord, the last of the Legitimists’ line, in 1882. Only a few years ago, and even now, I imagine, vendors of Action française 2000, the latest publication of the neo-royalists, would stand outside St Nicolas du Chardonnet on a Sunday morning. The most potent insult SSPX traditionalists throw at the Ecclesia Dei communities is that they are ‘ralliés’: they have rallied to what is called the Conciliar Church, like the treacherous monarchists rallying to the French Republic.
What stopped me facing up to this thought of a ‘schismatic trajectory’ at the time were all the horrors one could read about in the Catholic papers, the weakness of the diocesan bishops, the regular papal inter-religious jamborees under John Paul II with Animist skull ticklers from East Timor – I jest, but you know what I mean - , and occasionally having to attend mainstream liturgies for weddings or funerals, all celebrated with varying degrees of banality or abuse. Who could live with all that, day in and day out? Wouldn’t I be risking my soul to walk out into such a situation? No, the SSPX seemed to be, to use a perennial tautology, a ‘safe haven’ for a Catholic in the current climate.
I suppose it was early in 2004 that I began to look again at this issue. I ran across several people I had once known in the SSPX circles, and in arguing with them about various points it began to dawn on me that there were problems in the SSPX analysis. It also began to dawn on me that perhaps the situation for the SSPX and for the Church was not quite as I had thought it to be.
As I say, it is hard now to retrace every step of that path but I want to give a structure to the considerations that follow, so I will organise them very much in the order which they occurred to me. My initial considerations concerned the episcopal consecrations of 1988 and so were connected to canonical issues. The second body of considerations concerned theological points of controversy, and were connected to the Church’s teachings and to Vatican II. My final considerations concerned the liturgy, and were thus connected to the Church’s worship. What horrified many of my friends and family at the time was not merely my separating from the SSPX, but my questioning the SSPX theses almost right across the board. What they did not understand was my realisation that, in each of these three areas – canonical, theological, liturgical - the SSPX had, albeit very worthily and with serious reasons, made the same false step. That at least is my opinion. I hope to make their false step clearer in due course.
Part 1 Canonical considerations
One of the conversations that I had at this time was with a man who I had known many years ago in Manchester. He too, unbeknown to me, had quit the SSPX circles, and an accidental meeting one day led us into a debate. I don’t remember the terms of what we said, but I do remember coming away with a reference to look at Pius XII’s letter condemning the episcopal consecrations in the Chinese Church in 1958. The reasoning ultimately suggested that whatever the problems faced by the SSPX, ABL had no right to hand on the Apostolic Succession in the way he did. I thought I had the answer to that objection, but still I went back over the issue.
The SSPX were not slow in advancing complex and convincing canonical arguments in defence of their episcopal consecrations (I know you mainstreamers prefer episcopal ‘ordinations’ but just bear with me). If I attempted to go into these issues in detail, it was not because I believed I was especially competent to do so, but because I could not start anywhere else than where I was. Not only am I an academic type, but I spent nearly four years in SSPX seminaries, and it was my habit to go into things at some length, much to the dismay of my friends!
Argue up hill, down dale and all day long – recite all the worst horrors and abuses of the Vatican Council, and the 1970s and 1980s - and the keystone in the canonical defence of ABL’s consecrations is this: a canonical State of Necessity exists, and episcopal consecrations can be performed without mandate, when the lawgiver (the Pope) cannot be consulted. Now, according to the SSPX – take a deep breath, you lovers of JPII - John Paul II could not be consulted over the proposed episcopal consecrations, not because he was physically inaccessible but because he was morally inaccessible, i.e. according to the SSPX, so little did JPII grasp the Catholic Faith, so full was his mind of the error of universal salvation, so enamoured was he with his East Timorese skull-tickling interlocutors at Assisi, that he could not do his duty with regard to the faithful who depended on ABL for orthodox priests, sacraments in the 1962 rites, traditional schools and sound catechesis. Theoretically, the CDF's response to the SSPX's 'dubia' concerning religious liberty, and practically, the 1986 meeting in Assisi of the world religions convinced ABL that JPII was beyond the pale. That is, as I say, the keystone of the argument which justified the decision to consecrate bishops without papal mandate.
Beside which, ABL always said he was consecrating bishops just to administer the sacraments and not for any other reason. It was not a parallel Church. ‘Loin de moi, loin de moi de m’ériger en pape!’ (Be it far, far from me to set myself up as a pope), he said in his beautifully limpid French on the day of the consecrations in 1988.
But two things began to dawn on me at this stage.
Much later, what I read about JPII in George Weigel’s biography and other sources convinced me that the Polish pope was far from careless about the salvation of souls. Still, firstly, even if the SSPX were right about JPII, was the keystone argument safe? On second thoughts, it seemed quite shaky. It was not completely illogical to say JPII was ‘morally inaccessible’, but the conclusion was surely a form of practical sedevacantism: for the SSPX the candles were lit in the Vatican but nobody was at home, so to speak. Wasn't this actually the thin end of the wedge? What other decisions of the pope might be discarded if he were considered juridically incompetent? Moreover, this keystone argument takes no other circumstance into account. For example, at least two of the candidates ordained on 30 June 1988 might not have made it through any terna process: Bishop Williamson (a convert and not that long a Catholic) and Bishop Fellay (six years below canonical age). It was quite possible that JPII was thoroughly keen on reconciling the SSPX – he certainly was in 2001 - but as an old-fashioned Polish cleric, he wasn’t about to let ABL have it all his own way. It’s a point of principle for anyone in authority! After all, WHO was the pope? ‘Loin de moi, loin de moi de m’eriger en pape!’ I should add that in canon law the pope is not ultimately bound except by the divine law (though it may be imprudent to change other lower laws). But in this case, I thought, in order to justify the consecrations, wouldn't you have to argue that Rome's refusal to sanction the consecration of these four men on that date (a refusal made by public by Cardinal Gantin's formal canonical warning of 18 June, I think) was contrary to Divine Law? And how was that possible? And if it be argued that the consecrations were necessary for the defence of the faith - Operation Survival, as it was called by ABL - what did this say about the rest of the Church? Could nobody keep the faith except on the terms guaranteed by ABL's action?
The second thing that began to dawn on me was that there was a connection between the passing on of episcopal orders and the nature of the Church. ABL said he wanted to consecrate bishops just for the sacraments. In fact, he believed he was obliged to do that. Still, this idea of bishops just for the sacraments also started looking shaky. Bishops are not sacrament machines. In fact, even for auxiliaries, a bishop’s orders orientate him – order him – towards the teaching of the faith, the governance of the flock and the administration of the sacraments. A bishop’s powers are not deployed in a sacramental context alone, but in the context of the life of a local church (and potentially of the entire Church). Moreover, if a bishop could be ordained just for the sacraments as in the case of an auxiliary (bear with the approximation, all you theological purists), it was also because the governance and teaching of a particular flock were already taken care of by the ordinary. The episcopal consecrations might not have created a parallel Church as such, but they were correlative with the ecclesially autonomous life of the SSPX in which teaching, governance and sacraments were not dependent on any other Church authority. In handing on episcopal orders without papal mandate, ABL crystallised, liturgically and sacramentally, an autonomous ecclesial existence.
Part 2 Theological considerations
Imagine me now coming to the conclusion that the consecrations were just not safe any more. Whatever the situation of the SSPX and whatever the wider problems in the Church, the judgement that had led to the decision to consecrate and the implications of an autonomous ecclesial life were no longer acceptable solutions to the crisis.
In which case, where was I to go, and what was I to do? And how could I accept Vatican II and the New Mass, an acceptance which was required of me to attend the then ‘indult masses’? As so many people said to me, and as I feared myself, accepting such things was contrary to the Catholic conscience.
Again it is hard to retrace the steps that advanced my thinking on this point, but I think what made the difference was that whenever I argued the SSPX case with others, they had to remind me that what I was stating was my opinion, and not necessarily Church teaching. In this respect, one important document that I came across at the time was the CDF instruction on the Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian. Two distinctions emerged from this reading that have served me well ever since in all these debates.
Firstly, there is a difference between individual theological opinion and the Church’s magisterial judgment. It hadn’t really occurred to me before, probably because I regarded any teaching not solemnly defined, as susceptible of criticism (every post-1962 teaching, of course!). One important example of this confusion in my mind was the Ottaviani and Bacci Intervention on the New Mass. In this document, the authors claim that the New Mass departs significantly from the doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass ‘as formulated at the 22nd Session of the Council of Trent’. Traditionalists hold onto this statement as a solid basis from which to resist moves to make them attend the New Mass. The trouble with this, however, is that while we are bound to accept the 22nd Session of the Council of Trent, what the Intervention asserts are deductions based on a whole set of premises; the Intervention is thus a statement of theological opinion, eminently susceptible of criticism by other theologians, however distinguished its signatories were. In other words, in using such documents, traditionalists were ignoring their own theological processes. This in itself was bad, though the human mind cannot help coming to the conclusions contained potentially in its reasoning. What was worse, however, was that the traditionalist critics appeared to transfer the authority of magisterial judgements – in this case from the Council of Trent – to their own theological conclusions. The idea that the New Mass was contrary to the faith could be found in no Church document; it was a theological deduction. The traditionalist case against the New Mass is not merely theological, and I'll come back to it later on.
This insight began to change the way I read what traditionalist critics wrote. When I read the words, ‘the Church condemns this practice which is now so widespread,’ I began mentally adding in the words, ‘in the reasoning of this writer’. In some cases, of course, they are correct but still, there is a subtle nuance that needs recognising between theological opinion and magisterial judgment.
I cannot insist too much on the importance of this distinction for working through so much traditionalist writing. In each case, it seems sufficient for the traditionalist critic to be able to refer to a teaching in the past to conclude that Vatican II’s teachings can forthwith be dismissed as erroneous. It is as if, for the traditionalist critic, his own conclusions become as axiomatic as the documents on which they are based. I am not here saying that his working out is wrong, but that the value he attaches to his conclusion needs to be corroborated by the Church, not himself! As an aside, I should say that it is interesting to note the difference here between ABLs stance – that Vatican II must be read in the light of Tradition – with the current SSPX stance - Vatican II cannot be read in the light of Tradition.
The second insight, which is a corollary of this first one, was that the body of Church teachings was something different from the body of theological writings in the Church. As the CDF document noted above makes clear (quoting St Thomas Aquinas), a distinction exists between the Magisterium of the Teachers (or, experts) (magisterium cathedrae magisterialis) and the Magisterium of the Pastors (bishops and pope) (magisterium cathedrae pastoralis) (Note 27). The former normally feeds the reflection of the latter; moreover, the former must conduct its research in the context of the latter, and when they diverge, then it is the Magisterium of the Pastors which takes priority. To take an example from the other wing of the Church, it doesn’t matter that many distinguished professors of theology argue with mountains of cogent syllogisms that Humanae Vitae was wrong: the Magisterium of the Pastors, on this occasion in the person of Paul VI, ruled otherwise.
How then could I come to accept Vatican II, especially the points which I thought were contrary to previous teaching? It was at this stage that I also came to understand that even though Vatican II was, in its own language, a ‘pastoral’ and not a ‘dogmatic’ council, that doesn’t mean it was not a doctrinal council. What then were my obligations towards the doctrines taught in the conciliar documents? The answer came in reading Lumen Gentium, one of the dogmatic constitutions of the Council:
25. Among the principal duties of bishops the preaching of the Gospel occupies an eminent place.(39*) For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old,(164) making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock.(165) Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking. Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ's doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.(40*) This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith.(41*)
(39*) Cfr. Conc. Trid., Decr. de I reform., Sess. V, c. 2, n. 9; et Sess. I XXlV, can. 4; Conc. Oec. Decr. pp. 645 et 739.
(40*) Cfr. Conc. Vat. I, Const. dogm. Dei Filius, 3: Denz. 1712l (3011). Cfr. nota adiecta ad Schema I de Eccl. (desumpta ex.S. Rob. Bellarmino): Mansi 51, I 579 C, necnon Schema reformatum I Const. II de Ecclesia Christi, cum I commentario Kleutgen: Mansi 53, 313 AB. Pius IX, Epist. Tuas libener: Denz. 1683 (2879).
(41*) Cfr. Cod. Iur. Can., c. 1322-1323
164 Cf. Mt. 13, 52.
165 Cf.2 Tim. 4, 1-4.
What I gleaned from reading this was as follow. Those points where we do not recognise continuity must continue to be matters of reflection. But the promulgation of teachings by the Magisterium, even if they are only part of the authentic Magisterium, requires us to give religious assent of mind and will to their contents. Their promulgation makes them become a kind of theological datum which can no longer be treated as a mere theological opinion.
I want to be very clear here since in previous versions of this story I explained my thinking badly on this point. There are two important points that are worth bearing in mind. The first is a question of analysis and the second is a question of authority.
Firstly, there is a kind of assumption in traditionalist methodology that leads straight from analysis to denunciation of the errors which analysis claims to have uncovered. This thinking is supported, for example, by Abbé Berto’s essay on the Ordinary Magisterium, published by Angelus Press. You would think in reading this essay that continuity with previous teachings, as demonstrated through the Church’s teaching documents, sums up the Magisterium’s actions, and that this continuity is an unproblematic affair. And so it is, in the sense of the dictum of St Vincent of Lerins about what has always been believed, everywhere, by everyone. But the problem here is in thinking that if I – me, moi, yours truly – judge there to be no continuity, then there is no continuity in fact. What if other critics come to other conclusions? Abbé Berto names 'objectivity' and 'sensus fidei'as the two guiding criteria for continuity, but neither of these guarantees which analysis concords with the authentic sense of the doctrine.
The second problem is that I believed that unless a Church doctrine was defined infallibly, or unless I could subject it to the test of St Vincent of Lerins, then it was susceptible of what amounts to free criticism. Now, it is true that the teachings of the authentic Magisterium are not in themselves infallible. They are, then, not protected from error. This should not surprise us. Even in an extraordinary definition, only the definition itself (e.g. Mary was assumed into heaven) is 'infallible' as such; the theological arguments that contribute to the definition are not infallible. It is then possible that one might come to believe an authentic Magisterial teaching to be erroneous. In this case, however, surely the greatest care must be taken. The question ought to be raised with theologians and philosophers and the merits of the argument should be weighed and tested. Presumption rests in favour of the Church's teaching authority, and against the conclusion of any individual thelogian or individual until clarification is sought from the Pastoral Magisterium. A theological conclusion compels by logic; a magisterial teaching compels by the duty of religious assent.
To act publicly on the grounds of discontinuity, to the point of denouncing the Magisterial teaching as contrary to the faith, seems to go a step further. It makes one's theological conclusions into practical norms not only for questioning but also for rejecting the Church's authentic magisterial teachings. It is practically to say that in her authentic Magisterium the Church is not the authoritative agent which proposes Christian doctrine, or that the Church is only authoritative when defining solemnly. When I say it is to privatise the teaching role of the Church, this is what I mean.
I think that Pope Benedict did a lot for traditionalist critics when he offered them the ‘hermeneutic of continuity’ as a methodological lifeline. Still I am very aware of the vulnerability of this position and it is something that I reflect on often. It seems to make me guilty of what Protestants have long accused Catholics: the error of handing over their minds to the Church. As I see it, however, I pray that the Church clarifies the issues that most concern me, most particularly, the obscurity that has descended upon Leo XIII’s teachings concerning the nature of liberty and the religious duties of the State, the latter being anticipated by Gregory XVI, Pius IX and echoed by later popes. If I were a theologian, I would be working at pushing debate in that direction. Such was the endeavour that John Paul II called for in his Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei; and I see no reason why a confessional State and religious liberty, not in the Enlightenment sense but as understood by Dignitatis Humanae, cannot be reconciled. But since I am a mere academic scribbler working on the Third Republic, I must sadly labour in other fields, while keeping a keen eye on this one.
That thought process, then, was what made it possible for me not necessarily to abandon the SSPX theses, but to cast them in a new light, in a light which I dare to venture can be called ecclesial, because it refers ultimately back to the manner in which my conscience is bound by the Church. It did not mean that I had to accept every deviation and abuse that I saw before me. I did not have to think JPII’s inter-religious activities a great boon to Christian civilisation. In fact, there were many aspects of the traditionalist theses about the current situation that I could keep if I decided they were indeed true. I was not about to lose my right, as defined in Canon Law, to present my reservations to the hierarchy.
But the difference now was this: I recognised that in my criticism I had to acknowledge the magisterial character of certain teachings which hitherto I had regarded as freely open to criticism. And insofar as they bound my conscience, then I had to give them religious assent of mind and will. One still keeps one’s wits about one, using one’s God given intelligence. The practical awareness of heresy, so much an element in St Paul's thinking, is a dead letter in many contemporary Catholic minds. We have to be wary. But when the Church says magisterially ‘this is how it is’, then we listen.
At this point, I know some people are saying: what about St Athanasius? Well, St Athanasius’s actions were based on the fact that a general council, the Council of Nicea, had defined solemnly the consubstantial union of the Father and the Son in 325 AD before the Arian crisis began. Athanasius was fighting, therefore, to defend the doctrine of a general council.
Others will say: yes, but Vatican II was a complete stitch up by liberal moles who undermined everything. This seems to me to be a reductionist version of the history of the Council. Every Council has its weakness and its controversies, and Vatican II’s arguably exceed all others. But there it is, in all its appalling reality. And unless we are prepared to get up a theory of an impostor Church, it has to be faced. Personally, I think we ought to give the benefit of the doubt to the Holy Ghost.
A third objection has it that St Thomas's question on fraternal correction (II II, Q33, a.4, ad 2) justifies the action of ABL. But this involves a huge extrapolation. St Peter in Galations Chapter 2 was compromising over the practices of the Judaisers whose attempts to force the Jewish Law on the Gentiles were rejected by the Council of Jerusalem (Acts, 15). There is no suggestion in the Letter to the Galatians that St Peter was teaching with apostolic authority, and with the approval of the entire Church except St Paul, the contrary of what had been decided at Jerusalem, even if his actions were unfaithful to it.
These considerations made me think it was not only possible to give religious assent of mind and will to the teachings of Vatican II, but that in some sense I had been unfaithful to the Church by holding them to be open to free criticism. That did not, and does not, solve the objections and difficulties, but it does change the stance one adopts with regard to those teachings.
But what then of the New Mass? How could I live with that?
Part 3 Thinking liturgically
This was a truly difficult issue to deal with, not merely because I thought the traditionalist arguments against the New Mass were extremely strong – in 2000 I was responsible for translating most of the SSPX study called The Problem of the Liturgical Reform – but also because liturgy is intimately bound to our interior lives as Catholics.
Ironically, the beginning of my thinking on this issue came from reading Michael Davies’s book against the sedevacantists I Will Be with you Always. In this work, which I no longer have to hand, Davies, a major English-speaking critic of the New Mass, argued that the reformed liturgical books, those of the Roman Pontiff, had to be considered as integrally Catholic in their original Latin versions. This was, he argued, because the Church’s mission to sanctify her children was indefectible, and therefore, putting aside the appalling errors of her ministers or the inadequacies of 1960s reforms, the effects of that ecclesial charism (of indefectibility) must be available through her liturgical books. If, to use Fr Z’s dictum, the priest says the black and does the red, then those rites must be able to sanctify us.
This, it seemed to me, was a very different argument than the one normally followed by the traditionalists. They argued for the defectiveness of the new rites due to omissions of prayers and gestures, changes in words and rites, etc. The SSPX study on the Mass argued that the changes followed on from a heterodox theology of the Paschal Mystery, and that all the reforms could be associated with a loss of belief in the atoning nature of Christ’s death (cf. Bishop Tissier’s recent remarks). Davies’s argument, on the other hand, suggested that whatever changes had been made to the rites of the Church, we must regard the liturgical books themselves as integral, otherwise the Church could be said to poison her children.
As with the canonical and the theological issues, what was emerging was the ‘ecclesial’ dimension of this question. And in this light, another thought came upon me that was key in my thinking: if the New Mass is a rite of the Church, and it undeniably is, then should I not try to understand the rite in the light of the teachings of the Church, and not in the light of any interpretations which might be laid on those rites, either by liberals on the left or traditionalists on the right? There seemed to be precedents for this, e.g. in the old liturgy we genuflect more to the cross on Good Friday than to the Eucharist on ordinary days. But nobody but a Protestant would think we are honouring the cross more than the Eucharist. The deacon in the old rite says the prayer for the offering of the chalice with the priest. But nobody thereby thinks that the deacon’s ministry is to consecrate the chalice. Why? Well, lex orandi, lex credendi, of course, but we understand the liturgical action with the mind of the Church which is not possessed by the outsider.
Therefore, I thought, instead of sitting there grumbling to myself through what seemed to be the banality of the Responsorial Psalm, should I not try to pray in the spirit of the Church, with the meaning that the Church invests in these rites? And instead of picking out what wasn’t there, shouldn’t I listen for what was there? And lo and behold, it struck me for the first time that the doctrine of the sacrificial death of Christ and of the reparational character of the Church’s offering, were better expressed in Eucharistic Prayer III than in the Roman Canon (just my opinion of course) – Eucharistic Prayer III which was written by an expert!
In such a process, however, it occurred to me that here lay the solution to the many complaints of the traditionalists against the new rite. They were right to complain against the secular atmosphere in many liturgies, the irreverence, the experimentation, etc. Surely, what was lacking in these abusive liturgies was fidelity to the mind of the Church concerning the rites and concerning their doctrinal meaning. Yet that fidelity, and faith, could be made available even within the context of the new rite. This explained to me why, far from my finding all adherents of the new rites to be salivating, hysterical liberals, there were many faithful Catholics attending the new liturgy and thereby sanctifying their lives. The same conditions seem to prevail: wherever the faith was preached in a plenary way, wherever the liturgy was celebrated with dignity and reverence and commitment to the works of mercy was in place, then, there was Catholic life, even though the rites were those of Paul VI.
I have gone a lot farther than many traditionalists who have come my way. In fact, I have gone a lot farther even than the Church requires me or anyone else to do, since nobody is required to attend or to celebrate the New Mass, only to confess its validity and Catholic character. In fact, by confessing such things, one is in a much stronger position to criticise its weaknesses. For then, the criticism no longer comes from outside of the ecclesial context but from within it. This to me explains why people who might not entertain the arguments of The Problem of the Liturgical Reform listen to what various mainstream theologians have written about the New Mass (Reid, Gamber, Nichols, Lang and even Ratzinger himself). For example, one can still hold the new rite to be integrally Catholic, and yet consider that the culture of the old rite, where the people are supposedly passive, tends to teach people to pray independently, while the culture of the new rite often tends to create a dynamic in which people just chat to each other in church unless they are being actively animated by a minister.
In light of what has been said about my thinking on this issue, I think it worth adding here that holding the new rites to be integrally Catholic is not an excuse for turning a blind eye to abuse or to any malpractice within the mainstream. An integral rite does not mean an integral minister. Most traditionalists who walk along this path stop happily and securely with the Ecclesia Dei communities. The current attitude of Rome to those who attend the SSPX masses is that they can fulfil their Sunday obligation. I take this as a tacit acknowledgement of the problems that exist on the ground. Every situation is different and calls for the exercise of supernatural prudence and wisdom. My argument, however, does not mean that the mainstream is a valley of peace and happiness. Use your head!
None of this process has led to me approving liturgical abuse, heretical catechisms, bad leadership, papal misdeeds or anything else in the abundant catalogue of our contemporary ills. It is true I look at some cases differently because I look at them in a different context. I have had to learn not to rush to judgment at every turn. I have also had to learn that you have to have some credibility before you weigh in and give your opinions. I have been made to think about the parable in which the Lord forbids us to rip up the cockle from the wheat field because of the damage we can do to the wheat. I have also learnt that things might never be quite as I want them to be. So be it. We all have to suffer. Corruption didn’t come with the 1960s, and neither did heresy. These are all lessons which any traditionalist in quieter moments might admit that they ought to learn.
To return to the thread of my story, however, having begun thinking that the New Mass and Vatican II could not be accepted by the Catholic conscience, I now understood that the Catholic conscience was bound to recognise at least the Catholic character of the former and to assent religiously with mind and will to the latter.
Conclusions
And so, just before Easter 2004, I went to confession to a local priest who had become a friend and with whom I had discussed many of these issues. He heard my confession, and then very gently asked me:
‘Are you in communion with the Bishop of Rome?’
‘Communion,’ he said … that word that appears on all the front pages of papal encyclicals ‘to the bishops in peace and communion with the Apostolic See’
‘I think I am,’ I said. ‘I consider that I am in communion with him.’
‘But,’ he said very kindly, ‘it doesn’t matter what you think; it matters what the Bishop of Rome says.’
It was if anything in that moment of grace that I began to recognise the one error that ran through all the SSPX theses: a kind of privatisation of judgment. I’ll say it again: they live by a privatisation of judgment in their canonical, theological and liturgical life which leads them into an autonomous situation with regard to these three areas of ecclesial life. It is well meant. It is an instinct of self preservation. It seems to be the most logical and the most effective means of keeping the faith in a time of serious disintegration. But it is, nevertheless, a line of thought and conduct which is self-authenticating.
And what is wrong with self-authentification in the Church? The traditionalists very often quote that line of St Paul who, when he came to Jerusalem, ‘withstood Peter to the face’ because St Peter was equivocating with Judaic practices. They rarely, if ever, mention that other journey which St Paul made to Jerusalem – or was it Damascus? – after he had been taught the gospel by Christ himself in the wilderness. For on that journey, Paul went to the other apostles to have his gospel authenticated. It was not enough for him to have had visions from heaven itself. As a minister and servant of the gospel, his action required the Church’s approval.
And if privatisation was the prime error I could see running through the SSPX theses, the other thing I noticed was that time and time again, their references to the Church were always to some eternal Church of all time - ‘eternal Rome’ ABL called it - language that the SSPX continue to use. And yet, neither their canonical nor their theological nor their liturgical thinking seemed to be conceived in an ecclesial context, as I have tried to show above. If adhering to what they call the Church of all time is the key, why is the Church so absent from their thinking, in the episcopal consecrations, in their theological theses, and their criticism of the new liturgy?
And so, I upped sticks at the Easter of 2004, shook the dust from my feet, and went back home to the House of the Lord.
I do not argue with anger against the SSPX. I do not hate them and all their works, as some people have said. In fact I recognise that I owe an immense amount to them, and much even to the notorious Bishop Williamson who I suspect would have little time for me these days. I can understand why people might fulfil their Sunday obligations there. I can understand why people trust their pastoral guidance. I appreciate how desperate Catholics can become when faced with everything from the Assisi of John Paul II to the Blue Mosque of Benedict XVI. I do, however, think, the SSPX have created in the long run a false solution to a real problem. This is the key.
Many of the problems they identify are real. But they are not contributing except tangentially to changing those problems. And the more Bishop Williamson and Bishop Tissier announce apocalyptic dramas as the only possible outcome to the situation, the more ordinary folk must look to better counsel.
It is not those who reconcile who have become tired with the fight, dear Bishop Tissier. They have understood that unless they undertake the fight within the Church, in that unity which comes from the Holy Ghost and is visibly inscribed in hierarchical structures, then they will end up like every other individual who has loved the Church so much he wanted her conformed to his own image of the Church.
Reconciling does of course require the acknowledgment of certain errors on which the SSPX position is dependent. Yet recognising these things does not involve confessing that the errors and evils abroad in the mainstream are good things. Still, it does mean the SSPX must renounce privatised ecclesial thought, autonomous governance, and at the very least confess the Catholic character of the reformed missal (they do not have to celebrate it!). Only then can their voice acquire the authentic ecclesial character which will make them persuasive witnesses of those things they rightly remind the rest of the Church about.
*************
Such then was the path that led me back to where I am today. I am sure I have omitted several insights that helped me. Like any human story there are undoubtedly mistakes I have made along the way, and there are various nuances that could be added in mitigation of the traditional position. Still, that’s the story. Make of it what you will.
Monday, 28 July 2008
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145 comments:
"As I see it, however, I pray that the Church clarifies the issues that most concern me, most particularly, the obscurity that has descended upon Leo XIII’s teachings concerning the nature of liberty and the religious duties of the State, the latter being anticipated by Gregory XVI, Pius IX and echoed by later popes. If I were a theologian" I would be working at pushing debate in that direction."
Ches, I made an important treatise on Religious Freedom available on my Blog for just this purpose. This from Bishop Von Ketteler was authored 100 years before Dignitatis Humanae and anwers just all of the questions that many traditionalist are asking relative to the topic.
http://opuscula.blogspot.com/2008/07/on-religious-freedom-part-i.html
Although the title sounds like it might not be relevant, Brian Harrison has written an impressive work on the subject of DH's compatibility with past teaching called "Religious Liberty and Contraception". Recommended!
Ches, Thankyou for "Confessions..."
and for describing what must have been a very lonely journey, with no doubt many hours of prayer and reflection. It has certainly helped one who has been longing to return to communion with the Keeper of the Keys,( which longing I'm afraid would be considered by at least one SSPX Bishop as "lack of principle, seeking compromises, unfaithful etc..") and I'm sure will be a help to others, once again-thankyou
Lillibet
A small mistake, which may not be essential to your argument:
"nobody is required to attend or to celebrate the New Mass"
... in practice, this is the case in large parts of the world where Catholics do not, every Sunday, have the possibility to attend the traditional Mass, but could go to the new (and are therefore required to do so).
A very real question is this: how many more Catholics would be in this state of necessity WITHOUT the SSPX? What real change has the Motu Proprio done to the number of Catholics who may attend the traditional Mass?
As I said, this may not affect your arguments. I also pray that the situation of the SSPX may soon be regularized. But even as it is they are saving souls.
Wnat a beautiful piece of writing. Welcome home! I will be linking to this soon.
In Christ,
-Theo
Many, many things wrong with the SSPX, especially a tendency toward a cult-mentality and the fact that there is no appeal beyond Bishop Fellay when something goes really bad -- that's not Catholic. I have stayed, however, because I believe that without Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX, there would be no Motu Proprio. The Motu Proprio is in some respects a fraud, or at the least, window dressing. The Catholic bishop who has jurisdiction over Las Cruces, New Mexico still bans the Tridentine Mass and there are dozens of other dioceses where the ban continues. So this is not at all like the decree of Pope St. Pius V. This is a watered-down declaration from Pope Benedict which I do not believe is at all effective.
I have read all the intellectual arguments on both sides. I am no intellectual—just your average guy trying to save his soul. For me it all comes down to Fatima.
In 1917 the Holy Virgin gave us a message. She wanted it published by 1960, at the latest. Every pope since then has refused Her request. Why? Because the message, as told by those who have read it, is that the apostasy would begin at the top. Why 1960? She said it would be clearer then. We all know that the 1960s brought us Vatican II and the New Mass. This is the apostasy that was announced from heaven. The Holy Virgin doesn’t come from heaven and perform a miracle before 70,000 people unless the situation is dire. We are in the midst of this apostasy. We can try to pretend that it is not so bad as that, but it is. Many believe that the errors of this crisis are so entrenched that nothing short of divine intervention will correct them.
It all seems very simple to me. Perhaps some are too sophisticated to believe in apparitions today. But I believe we ignore the Mother of God at out peril.
Pete Vere wrote of his trek out of SSPX-land some years ago, and this was published in a compilation of essays edited by, I believe, Patrick Madrid.
Perhaps some of us who have made that journey could pool our tales in to our own book.
What say you, Ches?
Wm. Christopher Hoag
I must say that I am most impressed by your arguments. From time to time I have attended Mass at my local SSPX chapel, drawn there because I enjoy singing the Mass and using my Liber Usualis. I would never have joined the SSPX completely and your reasoning has convinced me, if ever I needed convincing, that such an action is not to be undertaken.
Thank you Ches.
JARay
I guess you're allowing comments on this to post after all....
I will attest to the fact that, after a likewise longtime and steadfast loyalty to the Society and its positions, questions I quietly entertained for a number of years came to the fore with a couple of things that arose in 2003: (1) an awareness of just how problematic the Society's approach to marriage annulments really is, particularly in the case of its self-perceived obligation to second-guess those issued through the currently-normative juridical process — by which I realized that any supplied jurisdiction would extend only so far as that which would have been given in "normal" circumstances; (2) the very interview of Fr. Aulagnier you referenced and the reaction to his comments by Society confreres. (A fellow former colleague of ours, having returned to his native Quebec, was at that time a first-hand witness of the truly wonderful things Father was trying to accomplish at his post in Montreal then.)
Certain misgivings I'd long had about elements of the predominant subculture in the parts of the Society's milieu of my experience came to full force a couple years later, which then led me to begin to consider the question: if I was perceiving distressing predominant tendencies at the subcultural level, was it possible that these existed not in spite of the doctrinal stands (as I'd long believed) but because of them, in the sense of being a derivative or ripple-effect thereof? But this was a question I was loathe to ponder, for I surely didn't like any of the alternatives, and thus for a year and a half, I felt and lived as a "man without a country."
It was during this period that I quietly began to come to terms with the conclusion that however much I still didn't like the Missal of Paul VI and wouldn't be sorry to see it scrapped tomorrow, the Society's judgment of its being an illegitimate rite — and at that, one so defective as to never be legitimizable — was indeed overreaching. Holding my nose, so to speak, I thus accepted the 1969 Missal to be among the legitimate Catholic rites, but evenso I continued to maintain my severely-frayed ties to the Society and its milieu.
What provoked me to act, at last, was a realization in February 2007, provoked by my discourses with a confidante possessing unusual depth of insight and thoroughgoing past knowledge of that milieu, that for several reasons peculiar to myself, (1) the Society's milieu did me more harm than good over the long term, and (2) it fundamentally lacked the wisdom and resources that would truly help me. I saw in this confidant's way of engaging the world-at-large a radical example of the very dictum that I myself observed long before in my initially embracing the Society: to be open to the truth, whatever it is and regardless of where it comes from, and follow whereever it leads.
Thus predisposed, I encountered your disputations on AQ and elsewhere the following spring. Through your expositions regarding the implications of the Society's fundamental theses and posturing for the question of Indefectibility, I saw at last a truly sound analysis of its problems at the theoretical level, striking at the heart of the entire raison d'être of its longstanding modus operandi. This was the convincing blow, and with it, I made my disassociation from the Society complete.
I've remarked in other fora, including AQ, that my "return to Rome," as it were, was and remains "without enthusiasm." The grass isn't all that much greener on this side of the fence — where indeed there is even grass to be found: as you know, I share your questions and concerns about the very many good questions many of the Society's theses pose, issues that Rome has yet to satisfactorily address in a meaningfully authoritative way.
I still get frosted whenever partisan commenters on blogs like Fr. Z's or Rorate Caeli bash the Society over the head with the "submission to the Pope" schtick while refusing to even try to understand why the Society and its avid supporters see the several disputed issues as they do. (Frankly, Fr. Z's own analyses of anything coming from SSPX channels gets over-the-top in like manner oftentimes.) This blog stands out, singularly in my mind, in offering a substantiative analysis of the real problematics of the Society, which then in turn explain their posture in negotiations and their applications of "supplied jurisdiction."
Needless to say, therefore, you deserve signficant credit for my own present understanding of these things, for which I am thankful.
And to think that when we were on Stockton Hill together, I always had thought you to be the quiet, dutiful type, decidedly disengaged from polemical topics!
Thanks for all your comments.
Athanasius would like it known that he has not shied away from the argument, and wishes to record his rejection of what he believes are my rationalisations and excuses for the situation in the Church.
Thanks you, Athanasius, and you are very welcome to comment on future posts here as long as you are prepared to keep it brief, and refrain from attacking or slighting other interlocutors. You haven't as yet had the grace the apologise for your comments about me the other evening.
Anonymous 1 (see why I ask for names?): I think the Church is being very wise by not entirely criminalizing attendance at SSPX chapels. The situation will only change slowly because it has gone so badly wrong, but if the situation is as you describe it, and if you are prepared to fight, the MP is your lever to respond to such autocracy by going over the bishop's head to Rome.
Larry, thanks for your message. You have put the Fatima case clearly and without polemics, and I'm very happy to answer you. To me, the Fatima 3rd secret is now too hedged about with theories on one side and the other about what it said, what it meant, who has hidden what, and all the rest. Our Lady has many devoted servants in the mainstream, and her message at Fatima itself was above all about calling us to prayer and penance, two of the three essential precepts. Surely the essence of what you say is the 3rd secret was acknowleged in 'Ecclesia in Europa' where JPII said Europe was in a state of a 'silent apostasy'.
As for the consecration, while it is undeniable that it did not take place according to the strict terms of the promise, we do not know exactly why the pope did not go ahead. I think it as well to continue praying to the Mother of God, praying for the pope and trusting in the gifts which the Church possesses and has always possessed because she is Christ's mystical body.
Dear Wm Christopher Hoag,
That's a very interesting idea: but who would buy the book? Drop me a line on my email (see profile).
Dear Somerst '76: sorry, I meant no comments from Daley, Brian and Athanasius because they have been hogging the comments box a little in the past week.
Thanks for your comments which answer my earlier email. It is significant that nobody on AQ has really addressed my logic and attempted to show me where my errors are. Some are too busy deconstructing my character, as Athanasius did the other night on here.
You were right about me. I don't like polemics. And I ought to be getting on with my duty instead of blogging. Which is what I'm about to do right now!
Best, as ever,
BJS.
While I agree with your assessment of the difficulties of the teaching on religious liberty, and would also wish that there was a magisterial clarification, I do not have the impression that the SSPX is really interested in a theological debate about it. To me the SSPX seems to be quite content to have the issue of religious liberty as a show-stopper that can be used as a reason to stay where it currently is.
There have been attempts to show how DH can be reconciled with the preconciliar magisterium, yet the SSPX was never interested in writing a scholarly answer to them (i.e. where they agree, where they disagree). Instead anyone who tries to do this gets the standard SSPX response "they are traitors, as they now accept religious liberty".
When the Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer regularized in part due to their newfound opinion that DH could be reconciled with Catholic teaching, the SSPX answer was "they have betrayed their principles in order to get approval from NewRome". Was there ever an answer from the SSPX to the treatises on the issue that appeared (and continue to appear) in Sedes Sapientiae? I'm not aware of any.
When a monk from Le Barroux wrote an essay on the matter after they had regularized the answer from the SSPX was "See what you get from making a deal with Rome? You'll betray the faith and accept religious liberty." Was there a real answer to the essay? I'm not aware of any.
This is the impression I get from the SSPX on many issues. If someone from the Ecclesia Dei traditionalists writes something they disagree with, it is not scholarly rebutted, but taken as a proof that the person (or often his entire group, even if his confreres disagree with him) has departed from the traditional faith, as the position of the SSPX is a priori correct and does not need defense.
Another example would be the essay of Fr. Lugmayr FSSP on the anaphora of Addai and Mari. OK, I see the difficulty, but I would rather see a rebuttal to Fr. Lugmayr's assertion that bishops with similar anaphora have died in communion with the pope (and one of them while being in Rome and knowing St. Pius V) than the SSPX answer "The FSSP has accepted the anaphora of Addai and Mari, they are conciliarists and have betrayed the faith".
I, too, went to an FSSPX seminary. I, too, left the Society. I, too, find problems with the FSSPX stance. Still, I cannot agree with you. There would be much to say, but I shall be brief and keep to a few salient points.
You make obedience to the Pope and infallibility almost the sole key, thus going far beyond Pastor Aeternus. Christ did not found his Church so that the Pope would have a society to do whatever he pleases with. Or did He?
You also make abstraction of the real (if you wish: ecclesiological) context of the matter. I live in a diocese where Humanae Vitae is said to be optional. This has been going on for 40 years. Hence, Catholics in my diocese often believe they can do as they please in this matter. And Rome does nothing. Whereas those whu state what the Church teaches are ridiculed in the dioces´s own magazine. Can you see this at all? Or is reality not pertinent?
Last, I should like to know, now that one Pope says that another never meant what he said he meant: with your new stand, would you not, in the shoes of the Archbishop or in those of dom Gérard, have given up the "usus antiquior"? This same "usus" which the Holy Father to-day says was never abrogated? Although virtually everyone believed it had been. And would you not, if in France, have submitted to the French bishops´ socialism and modernism in the 70s? As they demanded of Jean Madiran, for instance.
Anonymous, can you leave your name (or pseudonym) next time. Blog rules as stated on the first page!
I don't make infallibility the whole key at all. In fact, I can hardly have mentioned it in the article above.
But I do think that unless the pope's orders contradict the divine law (not through a series of deductions but absolutely), then there is always a 'case' that needs to be argued in which matters the pope is the last level of appeal.
I do not ignore the problems on the ground either. I have not dealt with them at length in my story because they were not a huge part of my story. This is not a refutation of the SSPX, but an account of how I came back to Rome. I hope to expand the article by talking about the kind of case you have mentioned.
Thank you for a very interesting and thought-provoking post. If you will be pardon the expression, it definitely "resonated" with me. I have been associated with the SSPX since 1997 and have over the last year began trying to discern my future and whether I should continue attending their local chapel or not. I have read numerous accounts of those who have left the SSPX milieu and read this post avidly. My own situation is made harder as my wife and her family are staunch SSPX supporters and have been for many years - my wife only attended the Mass of Paul VI as a young child - and she cannot bear the thought of the Novus Ordo, or subjecting our small children to it. I now attend the Novus Ordo on the 2 sometimes 3 Sundays a month when there is no Mass at the SSPX chapel, but my wife won't go. So it's very difficult - even for me, I dearly love the Traditional Mass, dislike the Novus Ordo and detest things like altar girls and Eucharistic Ministers, which are practically unavoidable, there being no "approved" Traditional Masses anywhere in my diocese, nor any really traditional NOs. Leaving the SSPX milieu would be extremely traumatic for my family, especially my wife. So, I'm looking for a solution - I hope God will guide us in the right direction.
I think most people turn to the SSPX for a place where they can practise traditional, orthodox Catholicism, free from abuses and gimmicks. But there is truly a sectarian, cultish spirit that develops, a bitter cynicism, a truly schismatic mentality that is content to remain forever at odds with Rome, a disdain for everyone outside the milieu, and an attitude that Catholic Tradition begins and ends with the SSPX. Also a Puritanical, neo-Jansenistic spirit. I see it all the time...not everyone is like this, but many are. What really got me thinking is the attitude of some priests who say one may not attend an approved Traditional Mass for Sunday obligation purposes, even if there is no other Traditional Mass available....that and the bitterness with which priests who leave the milieu are attacked. I know many people just want an oasis of Catholic orthodoxy and tradition, but the subculture of the movement is very disturbing.
God bless.
Nicholas, know how you feel. Was in a similar situation myself. We (meaning our family and several other individuals from the local SSPX chapel) resolved it by looking East. See if there is a good Byzantine Catholic parish around.
Nicholas,
That is unfortunate about the rest of your family. I spent about 10 years at SSPX chapels, and left relatively recently after several years of working through the issues.
I think you would enjoy Jacob Michael's book "From Econe to Rome: Leaving the SSPX Without Saying 'Schism'" which is for sale on Lulu press. Jacob had a long series of very good essays on traditionalist topics available online awhile ago on his lumengentleman catholic studies site, but alas, the site appears to be gone now.
Benjamin Douglass is another person who comes to mind--he's done some writing on Gerry Matatics, Communion in the hand, etc. that are relevant to traditionalist issues and discussions you might have with people.
Besides prayer, it sounds like you'll have to offer your family a long and deep witness before any cracks might start showing in their thoughts on these matters--be the best Catholic you can, emphasize the things in your own spiritual life that they may think are missing once someone goes 'novus ordo', and read Pope Benedict XVI's works, especially back when he was a Cardinal.
The things that got my mind especially going, I think, were in realizing that various traditionalist objections/criticisms weren't as traditional as I initially thought--and furthermore, the nature of private judgment occurring. After all, who decides what is and is not in harmony with tradition? Who has the authority to understand tradition correctly? The magisterium.
These are the things I would emphasize in the conversations you'll have with your family as time goes by. I'll keep them in my prayers.
Dear Ches,
In response to my comment, you write: "the MP is your lever to respond to such autocracy by going over the bishop's head to Rome". It sounds like a right idea in theory - indeed foreseen in the Motu Proprio - but do we no of a single case where this has led to anything? Here is the situation in real life, as I think it is in many dioceses (especially small ones): no priest is willing or able to say the old Mass, the bishop don't want to train or even encourage priests to do so, and certainly won't let FSSP, the Institute or other ED communities in. The Motu Proprio defines, in practice, a right for PRIESTS, not faithful. That's why the SSPX is still needed, to complete what the "regular(ized)" Church does not, in practice, do - to some extent, omisions which go against the will of the Holy Father.
Benigne (alias Anonymous1)
Up to the extent of attending Sunday Mass? Yes. For everything else? No.
Ches--I would like to thank you for your comments and keeping everything civil!! While I dont agree with you for MANY reasons, I do see many of your points!! I just question why we (SSPX) are not in "Communion"?? Is it really because all the proper procedures were not followed--or because one structure HAS to be wrong--New VS old!!! Seems that they can not both be right!! And why is it that what was right for so long is now wrong?? Does not radical change need radical opposition?? As a convert from the new mass to the old--I can not even THINK of going back. Changed my whole moral and religious life with SSPX. If you can judge by the fruits--then in my own case the "New" church can not come close to the SSPX. As you have said-just my own experience!!!
Thanks
Fascinating. Thank you. You make some good points.
I got acquainted with the SSPX in the mid- to late 1980s.
You said Bishop Williamson had not been a Roman Catholic very long when he was consecrated. I think he converted around 1970; I wouldn't say 18-20 years is 'not that long'.
The idea of differing degrees of communion is fairly straight forward. Those parts of the Church which live in the union of faith, sacraments and under the hierarchy are in full communion. The idea of partial communion explains how some things lacking in one of these areas can still in some ways have characteristic of the Church which can only be connected to the Church.
So, for example, the Orthodox have valid sacraments and yet are not in union with the See of Peter. Now, the sacraments are not magic! Some essential gift of the Church - orders and through orders the other sacraments which require a priest - is, therefore, active among them but not in union with the visble Church. There is, therefore, some kind of communion with the Church but not a full one.
With the SSPX, the problem is the issue of submission. There is no clear break as yet but the relationship is harmed by a refusal both to submit to Rome's custodianship of the faith (even this idea of doctrinal discussions is flawed to some extent) and by an appropriation of the rights of the Holy See over the aposotlic succssion.
And that is what I meant.
Hope that is clear, Chuck. All the best. Having done a lot of talking recently, I feel the urgent need to do a lot of praying!
Brian.
The Young Fogey...
Bishop Williamson indeed converted in 1971, and ordained to the Priesthood in 1976, about four or five years after his reception into the Church. Where the confusion may have arisen, and correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that normally candidates are not normally promoted to Holy Orders something like seven years.
Such candidates are impeded unless dispensed by their local Ordinary. I am not sure of the position under the Pio-Benedictine Code of 1917, but I wonder if it might not have been stricter still....
I am Anonymous at 29 July 2008 15:48. Actually, I thought I did post my name, but obviously I got it wrong somehow, I´m sorry.
You say you almost never mention infallibility in your post. But you mention obedience (in the sense that disobedience leads one to where Luther stood). To me, this is the same matter, to a great extent. For if God demands obedience in most things, and then does not give the corresponding infallibility to the man in charge and to whom obiedence is due, well, we have dinely sanctioned despotism. And I never meant to join anything of the kind. Nor did anyone ever mention to me that I was joining a totalitarian sect.
May I remind you that the current Holy Father has often said that the Pope does not own the Church, and that his office is not one of invention and giving odd orders? I feel you eschew the important matter at hand. Actually, I can see no difference between your new stance and that of ultramontists of the most extreme kind - or, in modern days, all those conservative Catholkics who used to swear that the old liturgy had been abrogated. And they were wrong. says the Pope to-day.
At least, I now know your mind on one specific point: the rite of Mass not being - in a narrow sense - divinely revealed, you would not have done what the Archbishop and Dom Gérard did. To me, this is enough.
P.-S. Were the Pope ever to ask Catholics to worship Shiva, I am certain there would be quite a few very obedient Catholics to obey and to condem those who refused. I refuse to believe in a system leading to that. Well, on refusing to obey to adore Shiva, one would have to use one´s private judgement, and therefore be a new Luther. I truly believe this is the system with which you leave us. And I cannot accept it as being what the Church teaches.
Thank you for such a well-expressed and illuminating post.
As a former Anglican - but now, happily, a Catholic priest - I immediately recognised in your description of the self-authenticating private judgement of the SSPX a very accurate portait of the mindset of many Anglo-Catholics.
They also "live by a privatisation of judgement in their canonical, theological and liturgical life." In their case, also, it "is well meant. It is an instinct of self preservation. It seems to be the most logical and the most effective means of keeping the faith in a time of serious disintegration. But it is, nevertheless, a line of thought and conduct which is self-authenticating."
It is a mindset from which it is very difficult to escape. One needs a moment of grace to bring this painful process to an end, and then one realises that one has been living in cloud-cuckoo land, and that the only solution is to be in "peace and communion with the Apostolic See."
From what you say, it sounds as though the members of the SSPX -like the Anglo-Catholics - need to recognise that they have made whatever contribution they had to make, and that the time has come for them to return to the rock from which they were hewn. If they don't, they - again like the Anglo-Catholics - will make a virtue out of schism, and will always find some reason for not being reconciled with the Holy See.
Aloysius, I think you are making an illogical deduction from what I have said.
There is, it is true, a charism of infallibility which protexts the teaching mission of the Church. There is not, however, a charism of impeccability which protects the pastoral mission of the Church, either in the pope or in the bishops throughout the world. So does what I have proposed actually mean the Church would be subject to the adoration of Shiva if some Church authority, or Rome itself, mandated it?
No! The pope, in his governance of the Church, must not unnecessarily revise Church laws, though in principle he could. Personally, I think many of the revisions of the last fifty years have been imprudent and mistaken, though sometimes this has only appeared through hindsight or come about through poor implementation.
Still, what binds the pope in the last analysis is divine law. Insofar as his actions are a clear contravention of divine law - and I'm talking clear, apparent, undeniable (as in commanding the adoration of a Shiva / changing the matter of the Eucharist to apples and water) and not discerned through contestable deductions, then those actions would have to be resisted.
Thank you Dr Sudlow for your exposition on the SSPX.
Could you set out for us please your understanding of the 'real problem' to which the SSPX have only been able to propose a false solution? Many thanks.
Thank you Brian for a fascinating account of your return to full communion with the Church. I have talked with you enough in the past to realise how fixed in you now is the necessary hermeneutic of thinking within and with the Church. Experience has taught me that if I find myself challenged by a teaching of the Church, that challenge is precisely to me, to reconcile my thinking to that of the Church. This of course takes a goodly dose of humility, which most moderns find a bitter enough pill.
My only regret is that I have found this blog so late in the day. In answer to Kevin (I think?) who laments the disappearance of the Lumen Gentleman site, I can say that it is resurrected as a blog - A Lumen Gentleman .
Pax!
I'm glad to see you have made your peace with girl altar boys, communion standing in the hand, folk and rock music at Mass, Eucharistic Ministers, Women Lectors, no chapel veils, and praying with Protestants.
All of the above are approved and encouraged by Rome. Enjoy!
Dear Anonymous,
I'll have a bash at thast by all means, but you'll have to leave a name first, as per the rules of posting comments on this blog.
Cheers.
Dear Steve,
And if I didn't like these things, I would have to support the SSPX would I? And if I no longer support the SSPX, then I cannot but support these things? Is that what you're implying?
In both cases, you'd be wrong.
The point is, if you truly want to be "in full communion" with the Holy Roman Pontiff, you must morally assent to the practices I listed. You must believe thew Charismatic movement is also a-ok since it is approved. You must also give moral assent to JPII's directives on church sharing with Protestants (hiding the tabernacle so as not to offend them) and giving non-Catholics Catholic funerals.
Where does "full-communion" with the Roman Pontiff stop? It seems to me by your own logic, if you vocally disagree with any of these approved practices, you are setting your private judgment higher than Rome, and you'd need to submit. After all, who are you to tell the Pope that his allowing girl-altar boys is wrong?
Well, Steve, apparently you've completely missed the point. Religious assent is required of those matters of Christian doctrine which are part of the authentic magisterium. None of the examples that you mention fall into that category, and so as Catholics we are perfectly entitled to have our own opinions on them, and remain in full communion.
Dear Brian,
Thanks for this illuminating post, which has clarified some central issues for me. I am wondering, though, how the principle you expound of trusting that any seemingly doctrinally dubious statements in VII documents are in fact reconcilable with Tradition (meaning especially all past infallible Magisterial statements) if interpreted correctly (i.e. in accordance with that Tradition) holds up against hard cases. This seems to me crucial, since otherwise (as in my previous sentence) the principle can border on the tautological. Example: I came across the claim that this sentence in Nostra Aetate #4“Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or cursed by God, as if such views followed from the holy scriptures” contradicts Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, 1442, ex cathedra: “…the holy Roman Church, founded on the words of our Lord and Savior, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and Holy Spirit… Therefore it [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views.” This is a claim by a Peter Dimond (he may be well-known in Trad circles for all I know; I am fairly new to these questions). He adds that the same Latin word, reprobat (reprobati) is used in both texts, thus it is, he says, an ungainsayable contradiction. However, on your principle it does seem to me that this can be made sense of, viz. "What Nostra Aetate is saying is that it is wrong to see the Jews as SPECIALLY cursed or reprobated by God, above and beyond the sense in which (as defined e.g. by Cantate Domino) all those who reject the Trinity are anathematized; they are no more (but no less) rejected (or self-excluded) than your average atheist." Ok, I would be happy with something like this, but my point is simply: Doesn't this after a while begin to sound like special pleading, reading the words of Council documents against the grain so as to make them fit a pre-conceived scheme (that no contradiction must be found)? (Then again in this case I believe PD is very much in the business of 'heresy-hunting', and so may be guilty of reading against the grain in a different way...what I said above about the Nostra Aetate intention on this point does seem to make good sense, though it could have been expressed with less unfortunate ambiguity in the text itself.) I would be grateful for your thoughts on this. (We've met, btw.; I'm in the Oxford Gregorian Chant group.)
Dear Erik,
How are you? Thanks for your comment. My position is not that all statements of Vatican II are in fact reconciliable with previous Magisterial statements but that we ought to read them as such as far as possible. If we arrive at an impasse, we seek clarification from the Magisterium.
1) As a rule, we have to presume coherence in the Magisterium, just as we presume coherence in Sacred Scripture (even when there are 'manifest' contradictions), not because the Magisterium is inspired in the same way but because it is guided, and preserved from error by the author of Scripture. In the case of the authentic Magisterium, which overlaps and intermingles with the other two (and which is not in fact infallible), the presumption is in favour of the Church, not against it.
2. When there are such anomalies, then it is the business of the theological community, and eventually the Magisterium, to sort through them. If a theologian thinks something is irreconciliable, then let him write about it in the appropriate places and test his thesis among his peers.
3. What I think is clear is that if a theologian puts his theological judgment (this is not reconciliable) over and above Magisterial authority to the point of denouncing the Church, then we have a real problem, as I think I tried to show in this blog post.
Have I answered your enquiry. I wasn't quite sure how you perceived tautology in this process. Let me know if I can help further.
Best,
BJS.
Dear Brian,
Thanks for this illuminating post, which has clarified some central issues for me. I am wondering, though, how the principle you expound of trusting that any seemingly doctrinally dubious statements in VII documents are in fact reconcilable with Tradition (meaning especially all past infallible Magisterial statements) if interpreted correctly (i.e. in accordance with that Tradition) holds up against hard cases. This seems to me crucial, since otherwise (as in my previous sentence) the principle can border on the tautological. Example: I came across the claim that this sentence in Nostra Aetate #4“Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or cursed by God, as if such views followed from the holy scriptures” contradicts Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, 1442, ex cathedra: “…the holy Roman Church, founded on the words of our Lord and Savior, firmly believes, professes and preaches one true God, almighty, immutable and eternal, Father, Son and Holy Spirit… Therefore it [the Holy Roman Church] condemns, rejects, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views.” This is a claim by a Peter Dimond (he may be well-known in Trad circles for all I know; I am fairly new to these questions). He adds that the same Latin word, reprobat (reprobati) is used in both texts, thus it is, he says, an ungainsayable contradiction. However, on your principle it does seem to me that this can be made sense of, viz. "What Nostra Aetate is saying is that it is wrong to see the Jews as SPECIALLY cursed or reprobated by God, above and beyond the sense in which (as defined e.g. by Cantate Domino) all those who reject the Trinity are anathematized; they are no more (but no less) rejected (or self-excluded) than your average atheist." Ok, I would be happy with something like this, but my point is simply: Doesn't this after a while begin to sound like special pleading, reading the words of Council documents against the grain so as to make them fit a pre-conceived scheme (that no contradiction must be found)? (Then again in this case I believe PD is very much in the business of 'heresy-hunting', and so may be guilty of reading against the grain in a different way...what I said above about the Nostra Aetate intention on this point does seem to make good sense, though it could have been expressed with less unfortunate ambiguity in the text itself.) I would be grateful for your thoughts on this. (We've met, btw.; I'm in the Oxford Gregorian Chant group.)
Thanks, Brian, that does unmuddle me a bit further. Where I saw a danger of tautology was if one makes the wish to reconcile statements into an a priori assumption that they must be reconcileable. But you avoid this by introducing a possible further appeal to the Magisterium to settle/clarify the interpretation in each individual case (and I think you say somewhere that there COULD, hypothetically though not actually, exist statements that no such 'clarification' could cope with, viz. a papal bull enjoining Shiva-worship; this too prevents tautology it seems to me). Any interpretation remains, as you say, simply 'the opinion of the present writer' until turned into a theological datum by the Magisterium (I notice here that you do not comment on my actual example, no doubt because it of course belongs in this category too...but perhaps you have some avowedly non-Magisterial thoughts?) I did not think of it clearly enough as a process of theological debate and possible adjudication in the way you outline, and I did not clearly enough append the tag 'in the opinion of the present writer' to my own readings of documents. Thanks again for a very helpful post. (I'm doing fine, thanks; hope to see you again in Oxford sometime in Michaelmas term.)
ErikT,
I would be more than a little wary of anything that Peter Dimond writes. He is a Sedevacantist who holds that John XXIII, Paul VI, JPI and II and the current Holy Father are all "Antipopes".
Mr Dimond is nothing more than a Protestant in Catholic claothing; essentially holding that since Vatican II, the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Petrine see and Holy Mother Church itself.
I also undertand that he is a Feenyite, denying such doctrines as Baptism of Desire, and by Blood.
You ask:
"Doesn't this after a while begin to sound like special pleading, reading the words of Council documents against the grain so as to make them fit a pre-conceived scheme (that no contradiction must be found)?"
Not really; it is reading the Concillliar documents through what the Pope would call a "hermeneutic of continuity"; that is, the Council Fathers are taken to have believed in the fundamental doctrines of the Creed, such as the Trinity. Where there is ambiguity, an orthodox interpretation is adopted over a plainly unorthodox one.
Civil lawyers use such principles of interpretation all the time. The new must be read consistently and in light of the old. There's nothing unusual at all about that.
On the contrary, Dimond is looking for inconsistencies where there are none, to prove his thesis that the modern Popes are heretical and no Popes at all, and therefore the gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church, and the Papacy has been destroyed.
On the other hand, reading the Council documents through a hermeneutic of continity merely assumes that the Church was founded by Christ and teaches infallibly.
Beware of the Dimond agenda. He is no Catholic in any meaningful sense of the word.
Thanks for the warning, Brian; Dimond seems to me utterly barmy after a brief look at his website. Very sad that such characters pose as 'true Catholics' and cast aspersions on the Chruch. I only came across an isolated webpage on this by PD (not knowing who he was) when searching for info after someone in conversation alleged a Vatican II 'contradiction' of previous teaching on the Jews. As I said, I don't buy this at all, but having read your 'Confessions' post previously, I somehow felt the issue had a bearing on that (I essentially applied your principles in the discussion, but not lucidly enough). Thanks for your clarifications, all helpful. Best wishes, Erik
David, Apologies, I didn't actually look at the heading and now realise you are not Brian...thanks for the advice, anyhow. Best, E
To Steve who sent me the article-length comment. This is a blog, not a discussion forum. If you boil all that down to a couple of salient points, I'll publish and answer them.
Gosh, over 7000 words on why you left. But the thesis word count does betray the true cause: you think too much. Clearly the intellectual but I would suggest that an overbearing scrupulous mind is your vice. Bring back the Brian of old!
Anonymouse,
Firstly, the rules of this blog, posted on the front page, ask you to take a name. This is to avoid long discussions in the com box between 'anonymouses'.
Secondly, we all have our vices. Thanks for identifying what you think is mine.
Lastly, by all means, engage with the discussion, but if you want an 'ad hominum' debate, go to Angelqueen where you won't be contradicted.
“a privatisation of judgment”. This is utter nonsense. I’ll say it again: this is utter nonsense, can I suggest you look up the definition of the word privatization?
Privatization has a specific, economic meaning: “transferring ownership of business from the public sector to the private sector”. A term first used (it would appear) in the 1930s by The Economist. Even in a broader sense, with privatization referring to the transfer of any governing authority function to private control you’re comment is nonsensical.
If the SSPX had “privatized judgment” it must be theirs to privatize otherwise this is not privatization. You cannot privatize that which you do not own.
If the SSPX had “privatized judgment” they would no longer own it. The ownership would pass to … who exactly? The private sector of the SSPX? Which is what? The laity perhaps?
If the SSPX had “privatized judgment” what form did it take? A share or asset issue or voucher privatization? A share issue where everyone could acquire (if they so wished) a share of the “judgment”; or was the “judgment” sold off as an “asset” – may be to a Swiss banker secretly financing the SSPX; or a voucher privatization where a share of the “judgment” was evenly distributed to all?
If the SSPX had “privatized judgment” I, and others like me, now own a piece of their judgment. How do we exercise are little bits of the SSPX judgment?
If the SSPX had “privatized judgment” then the motivation would be for the (perceived) benefits that privatization brings about: improved performance and accountability, less corruption and political interference etc. etc.
It becomes even more absurd if we substitute a synonym of privatization: “The SSPX have de-nationalized judgment”. In an attempt for a smart sound bite you’ve completely screwed up on you understanding of the word privatization.
Perhaps you’re now thinking “a nationalization of judgment” but this is equally fraught with similar fallacies. What about “a hostile takeover of judgment” but this is not as catchy it is? Anyway I’m sure you’ll be able to come up with a more accurate economic analogy. Now I’m off to renationalize definitions…
Maggie, if you were as sensible as you were logical, you would know perfectly well that the term is used here in an analogical sense, not in a strictly univocal sense.
So, pardon me for saying it, but your 'reductio ad absurdum' isn't so much devastating as silly.
But that’s the whole point Ches, it is not analogous – not even close. Privatization is the transfer of ownership of “something” to some body by the owner. I’ll say again, please read a definition of the word privatization. If the SSPX have “privatized judgment” to who have they passed ownership to?
Your whole point, Maggie, was to shoot first and ask questions later, treatment which wins you no respect here.
What you have done in your second comment is to advance the definition of privatisation, as you undertand it, and then say it cannot be applied to the SSPX. In other words, you're still treating it univocally.
Analogy is what accounts for our different use of various words. The classic example is 'healthy'. A banana is not healthy in the same way a diet is healthy or in the same way that someone's appearance is healthy. They cannot be defined in the same way but they are all related to the central concept of health.
So, by using the word 'privatisation' in an analogous way, I am making reference to the fact that the Faith which is ecclesial (public) in character is 'privatised' by an individual who assumes control of its content (whether he does that on the basis of sacred texts, papal documents, or whatever). In this case, there is a passage of control (of the faith) from the hands of a public body into the hands of a private individual, as one finds in economic privatisation.
Now, the leading role of the public body is not represented in this analogous privatisation because the latter is an act of violence against the faith of the Church; it hands ownership of the faith (wrongly) over into the private hands of experts.
It is not I who need to read a definition of privatisation. It is you who need to understand the difference between the univocal and the analogous.
Ches,
First, the (single) question I asked last: “If the SSPX have “privatized judgment” to who have they passed ownership to?” was a repeat of a question asked in my first post: “If the SSPX had “privatized judgment” they would no longer own it. The ownership would pass to … who exactly?” (I pray you can reconcile the two questions otherwise this will become rather tedious). You have yet to answer this question.
The definition for privatization was taken from Wikipedia “transferring ownership of business from the public sector to the private sector” [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatisation]. Please read it, you’ll find it a good primer.
You may disagree with this definition; well here are another dozen for you to peruse:
The Free Dictionary: “the act or process of transferring to private ownership industry operated by a government, of ten industry that has been nationalized.” [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/privatization]
Merriam-Webster: “to make private ; especially : to change (as a business or industry) from public to private control or ownership.” [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/privatization]
Compact Oxford English Dictionary: “transfer (a business or industry) from public to private ownership.” [http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/privatize?view=uk]
Encarta: “take something out of state control: to transfer to private ownership an economic enterprise or public utility that has been under state ownership.” [http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/privatization.html]
Chambers: “to transfer (a state-owned business) to private ownership.” [http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/features/chref/chref.py/main?title=21st&query=privatise]
Cambridge: “If a government privatizes an industry, company or service that it owns and controls, it sells it so that it becomes privately owned and controlled.” [http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=62983&dict=CALD]
Free Dictionary: “changing something from state to private ownership or control.” [http://www.freedictionary.org/?Query=privatization]
Wiktionary: “The transfer of a company or organization from government to private ownership and control.” [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/privatization]
Cambridge Dictionary of American English: “(of an industry, company, or service) to change from being owned by a government to being owned and controlled independently.” [http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=private*2+0&dict=A]
Longman: “if a government privatizes an organization, industry, or service that it owns or controls, it sells it.” [http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/privatize]
WordWeb Online: “change from governmental to private control or ownership; "The oil industry was privatized."” [http://www.wordwebonline.com/search.pl?w=privatise]
Now, the tenor running through the definitions above is that the public owner of some entity passes their ownership of that entity to a private owner. And I attempted to provide a broader definition that was not restricted to a government, state or a business, company, service utility etc. etc. If you would like to advance your own understanding definition (and provide some reliable references, naturally) please do so.
I am well aware of analogy (but not the supposedly “classic” example) but this is not the problem. Contrary to what you write we can, using the O.E.D., give a single definition for all your analogies of healthy: “having or promoting good health” [http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/healthy?view=uk] and health can be defined as “the state of being free from illness or injury” [http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/health?view=uk].
Now, a banana is not poor in the same way a diet is poor or in the same way that someone's appearance is poor. But where you have erred Ches, to give an analogy, is to apply the “healthy” adjective (rather than poor) to describe the condition a man on his deathbed. It is simply a wrong analogy.
Ches, this is what you fail (or possibly refuse) to comprehend: The act of privatisation results in a LOSS of control and not a gain in control for the “privatizer”. So I repeat the question above: If the SSPX have “privatized judgment” (as you claim) to who have they passed ownership to?
And your comment “Faith which is ecclesial (public) in character is 'privatised' by an individual who assumes control of its content” is equally floored; it is the exact opposite of the operation of privatization. It is NOT the individual (private) who privatizes since they are not owner; it is the public owner who privatizes. Understand?
Similarly, your comment “there is a passage of control (of the faith) from the hands of a public body into the hands of a private individual, as one finds in economic privatisation” is also floored. First, I doubt the “public body” would agree they have transferred control or that the private individual has control, second it is the control “of judgment” not “of the faith” and third with an “economic privatisation” (as if there’s any other kind) there is some form of public offer.
What you are accusing the SSPX of (if I understand correctly) is this: the SSPX have taken control of something (judgement) that was not theirs to take and they refuse to return it to it’s rightful owner. But this however is analogous to theft, pilfering or hijacking not privatization.
Ches, I suspect you realise that you have used the wrong word and it’s not as though there aren’t numerous other words you could have used. Please be courteous enough to acknowledge your error.
What I'll concede is that you don't appear to understand the difference between univocity and analogy.
All you are doing in your response is concentrating on the difference in the analogy rather than the point of the analogy. You might as well say that an appearance cannot be healthy because, unlike a banana, it is not the agent of health. 'Omnis comparatio claudicat nisi in puncto comparationis' goes the saying.
I do not in the least think I've used the wrong word. It expresses what I think has happened in the SSPX: the relocation of magisterial judgment from the office of the Teaching Church (from the public body) to the theological experts among the SSPX (the private body). You might not like the usage, but it appears to have been perfectly well understood by others.
At the end of the day, I would not say this problem of the SSPX is akin to 'theft' but rather to usurpation. I would, however, in that case be speaking univocally.
Finally then, the terms of your question simply insist on univocally interpreting the word privatisation. If you prefer 'usurpation', go ahead and use that. I nevertheless preferred to use 'privatisation' in an analogous sense to underline the passage of an erstwhile public function into private hands(the SSPX in this case).
Protestants engaging in "private interpretation" of the Bible is an expression taken for granted in Roman Catholic circles, including the SSPX, I believe.
As for "private judgment" it is a phrase you'll even find used on the SSPX site itself, two sentences into the second paragraph of the essay "Roman Protestants": http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/roman_protestants.htm
"For the Protestant mentality is essentially skeptical and fissiparous. Once it had broken away from the parent Christian stock and committed itself to the vagaries of private judgment, it went on changing, evolving and splitting up into ever new sects."
You'll notice also the use of the word "privatization" in relation to the Liturgy in the SSPX's Newsletter of the District of Asia, Oct.-Dec 2002
http://www.sspxasia.com/Newsletters/2002/Oct-Dec/Editorial.htm
It reads: "The result has been a real ‘privatization’ of the Liturgy, therefore its destruction as a common, public prayer of the universal Church, and, as a necessary outcome, a de-Catholicization of the Liturgy. The Liturgy has now lost its Catholic note. It is no longer universal. It is a local issue, not even a national one, as it may change from parish to parish, from dialect to dialect, from tribe to tribe, within the same country."
Thanks, Kevin. I wasn't aware of that and it simply confirms my usage was perfectly acceptable. I don't know why Maggie got so tetchy about it. I suspect she might be upset with what the argument means for the SSPX.
Do you believe that the NO Mass as said in English is valid? If so why? Do you believe vernacular translations are covered by "indefectability"? Thanks.
I believe what the Church holds, Steve, and the Church most certainly holds the vernacular forms of the liturgy to be valid. While that does not immediately fall into the category of consequences of indefectible, I think the theory that the vast majority of the Church's public acts of worship are not valid raises grave problems for ecclesiology, especially as regards the visibility of the Church.
Paragraph 62 of Mediator Dei (Pius XII) states:
Quote:
"62. Assuredly it is a wise and most laudable thing to return in spirit and affection to the sources of the sacred liturgy. For research in this field of study, by tracing it back to its origins, contributes valuable assistance towards a more thorough and careful investigation of the significance of feast-days, and of the meaning of the texts and sacred ceremonies employed on their occasion. But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform;"
I'm no liturgical historian, but I'm fairly certain that the GIRM of the new mass requires, or at least permits, a tableform altar.
What do you make of this?
Thanks!
That to allow the table altar form merely for reasons of antiquitism would fall under Pius XII's censure, but that does not exhaust the reasons why such a form might be used.
Do you believe SSPX confessions are valid?
en français...!
ça y est, j'ai tout lu, avec les commentaires ! J'ai beaucoup aimé celui de Maggie : une vraie dialectique marxiste ! On prend un mot et on lui fait dire le contraire de la pensée de l'auteur en le tordant dans tous les sens, c'est un bel exercice de réflexion lefebvriste ! Or la notion de "jugement privé" est une notion canonique, qui existe dans l'Eglise depuis l'Empire romain et qui ne doit rien à The Economist !!!
Votre témoignage est très intéressant et je pense que vous avez totalement raison sur la façon de penser de la SSPX : ce n'est pas un raisonnement d'Eglise mais un jugement privé et en ce sens, le témoignage de nombreux Anglais est intéressant, surtout celui du prêtre qui estime qu'il y a une proximité entre SSPX et anglo-catholiques (that means anglicans, I guess ?)
C'est très intéressant aussi de constater que les Anglais globalement raisonnent comme vous : on ne peut pas être catholique sans être fermement attaché au Siège de Pierre, par simplement en mots mais en actes... pas simplement en esprit mais de coeur. En ce sens, c'est drôle, mais tout ce que dit Steve, ce sont des choses pratiquées dans les paroisses mais condamnées par l'Eglise (les filles servantes d'autel, la communion par des laïcs, dans la main, etc...) donc les lefebvristes se servent toujours de faux arguments pour étayer leurs théories...
En France, c'est assez différents : la plupart de ceux qui voient les failles du raisonnement de la SSPX deviennent sédévacantistes... je pense que cela est largement dû à l'esprit français, très frondeur et opposé à l'autorité. Vous qui connaissez bien l'histoire de la 3ème république, il me semble que c'est l'opposition systématique au pouvoir en place de la frange conservatrice des français qui explique cette attitude. Elle est patente avec l'Action Française où déjà on prend l'habitude de critiquer le Pape et de refuser d'accepter ses décisions (ie la condamnation)
Du coup, la SSPX prend des libertés terribles avec les règles canoniques sous prétexte d'état de nécessité : les tribunaux ecclesiastiques, mais aussi la consécration de Williamson former-anglican, celle de Fellay largement avant l'âge canonique et pareil avec des ordinations de prêtres non idoines... On ne doit pourtant pas jouer avec les lois de l'Eglise...
Mais la SSPX n'a aucune connaissance théologique, cela a été dit dans un commentaire : elle est incapable de faire une démonstration scholastique contre la liberté religieuse ou les autres problèmes qu'elle soulève. Sur la messe, elle en est restée au bref examen critique, qui est aussi bref que peu approfondi ! sur l'anaphore, elle a hurlé, mais sans aucun argument alors que l'Histoire de l'Eglise est très complexe sur ce sujet ! Souvent l'Eglise a accepté des situations liturgiques "limite" pour ne pas favoriser un schisme supplémentaire !
En revanche, la SSPX accepte volontiers l'idée de communion imparfaite, en ce qui concerne sa situation ! même si elle la refuse comme une nouveauté pour les orthodoxes !...
Bref, pour ma part, j'ai été dans les écoles de la SSPX en France, puis sédévacatiste mais là, j'ai croisé beaucoup de cinglés en particulier aux Etats Unis (mais en France aussi, je vous rassure ! et aussi en Angleterre mais maintenant, il est en Irlande, je crois...) et puis, j'ai fini par me rendre compte que cela n'était pas compatible avec l'indéfectibilité de l'Eglise et les promesses du Christ surtout en lisant Satis Cognitum de Léon XIII que je recommande...
Vous avez aussi parfaitement raison de préciser qu'en cas d'apparente contradiction dans le magistère, on doit présumer la cohérence, c'est une règle canonique (et de bon sens) mais je ne sais plus où elle est édictée...) et je crois que c'est Grégoire XVI qui disait aussi qu'il appartenait à l'Eglise de répéter toujours les mêmes choses, mais de façon nouvelle, pour que l'Eglise soit comprise des contemporains. C'est sans doute ce qui trouble le plus car les membres de la SSPX raisonnent avec les mots (et les idées) du XIXème siècle...
Dernière chose : la position de la SSPX (comme des sédévacantistes) est fondée sur le "Secret" de La Salette : Romme perdra la foi et deviendra le siège de l'Antéchrist... Bp Fellay a récemment commencé un sermon pour expliquer sa position par ce Secret... Or cela n'est en aucune façon un document magistériel lié à la Révélation ! Au contraire, le Secret a été condamné en 1915 par le Saint Office et son contenu me semble contraire aux promesses du Christ sur l'indéfectibilité. Et c'est pourtant l'argument majeur utilisé par les opposants à Rome, or ce n'est pas un document d'Eglise, et son contenu (dans la version la plus diffusée) est contraire à la foi (indéfectibilité) et aux moeurs ("antéchrist fils du diable et d'une religieuse") et l'on n'imagine pas un seul instant la Très Sainte Vierge Marie proférant de tels propos...
Merci encore pour votre témoignage : à traduire en français de toute urgence !
Steve, it doesn't matter what I think. It matters what the Church says. Now, as far as I'm aware, there is no official judgment of the Church on this question, probably because the answer could easily vary from case to case. What is certain is that 'in articulo mortis' when no other priest is immediately available, their confessions are certainly valid. The argument from common error might apply to some of the faithful who barely think in canonical terms. As for the rest, I really have no idea, and there are arguments on both sides, but I wouldn't consider confessing myself to an SSPX priest except in danger of death.
I disagree with you that common error only applies to "some of the faithful who barely think in canonical terms".
I think very much in canonical terms and have studied this issue at length. I'm not a life-long SSPX'er and I do not even belong to an SSPX chapel. However, I have gone there for confession in the past. I'm not a canon lawyer, but I am a lawyer by trade.
The legal fiction of "common error" is misunderstood by many laymen. This is a legal concept common in the civil law as well as canon law, so I have some familiarity with it.
If you have time, please check out this non-SSPX Canon Lawyer's take. Bob Sungenis posted it on his site. Before he read the piece, I believe Bob was inclined to think they were not valid.
http://www.catholicintl.com/catholicissues/sspxconfessions.pdf
Thanks!
Steve
I'm not sure what you're suggesting here, so let me make a distinction. If the error people make is entirely innocent - because they never even realised about this issue of faculties - then I can see common error applying. Surely, however, common error doesn't apply to a contentious interpretation of the law which is at prima facie odds with ordinary canonical practice.
Ultimately God will be the judge. Incidentally, the impossibility fo good spiritual advice outside the SSPX has been exaggerated.
Ches,
I used to think the exact same thing because it seems logical.
However, the concept of common error, is a fiction of law or legal construct. Legal fictions do not always correspond to reality.
As Mr. Salza explains:
In determining factual common error, the proper question is not whether the priest has faculties,
but whether a group of reasonable persons would erroneously believe that an SSPX priest has
faculties based on the facts. What facts would lead a group of reasonable persons to believe an
SSPX priest has faculties? If they saw the priest celebrating Mass in a Catholic chapel, which
publicly advertised its Mass times, and where hundreds of people regularly gathered on Sundays for Mass. It seems to me that a group of reasonable persons (average Catholics) who witnessed
these facts could erroneously believe that the SSPX priest had faculties. Moreover, it is not
necessary that the people actually believe the priest has faculties; only that a group of reasonable
persons could be induced to believe he had faculties.
later on..
J. Salza: I have to disagree with this analysis. Mr. Akin says that an SSPX community is
“capable of having a common error,” and then says that common error does not appear to exist.
The fact that a community is capable of common error is precisely what triggers supplied
jurisdiction. If a fact could induce Catholics to believe that a priest has faculties, the Church
supplies jurisdiction under Canon 144 on the grounds of factual common error. Would a
community of average Catholics be induced to believe that a priest has faculties if they saw that
priest celebrating Mass and hearing confessions in a Catholic chapel? Particularly when the
chapel is in the public square, advertises its Mass times, has hundreds of congregants and all the
other indicia of a Catholic parish? (Remember, the community doesn’t have to actually believe it; only that they could be induced to believe it.) I believe the answer to this question is “Yes.” This is why the community of believers is “capable of having a common error.”
Yes, but once people know that the SSPX do not have faculties, how can those faculties be supplied on the basis of common error? They are no longer 'in error' about the lack of faculties. That is why I say surely some people could benefit from common error while others who know very well that the SSPX have no faculties could not.
Ches, a rather lame response of yours but I suspect that privately you know your use of the word “privatization” is incorrect even if you won’t now publicly admit it.
It is not the difference between univocity and analogy but the understanding of key aspects of privatization and it’s use in analogy. And in this you have failed despite the numerous definitions I provided.
You reached your fatal conclusion by a logical fallacy, by neglecting certain facts about privatization, such as, it is caused by the public and not private body and the effect is that the “privatized item” is private from the body performing the act. Hence you give a fallacy of definition since your so called “analogy” is self-stultifying. To give an example: "Daytime is when you can see the sun and no stars." but we know that the sun IS a star. Now, you accuse the SSPX of “privatization” and claim that the SSPX are the private body. But we know that privatization IS caused by the public body.
Using your erroneous analogy we could say that a boy has “privatized” a bag of candy from a store; whether or not he stole it, bought it or was gifted it by the owner, since your “privatization” is merely a transfer of control, independent of the cause of transfer or whether or not the transfer is legitimate. But this falls foul of the “Too Broad” fallacy. Which leads onto yet another point: privatization is a licit act and yet you are accusing the SSPX of an illicit act since you are demanding they return what is not theirs.
Again, you commit another fallacy (of false analogy, see http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/false_analogy). You used the word privatization to describe the actions of the SSPX; then you read that the SSPX have used the word on one of their websites; and simply concluded that because they made use of the word themselves your use of the word about the SSPX must have been correct. But if you read the complete article or at least the preceding part that Kevin omitted: “Of course this monopoly of the pre-Vatican II Liturgy by Rome (as in canon 1257) has now been dismantled in favor of Bishops’ Conferences…..” you will see that there is a reference to the “public body” and the transfer of control by the public body to the “Bishops’ Conferences” (private body). Here you have a correct use of the word “privatization” as an analogy. Maybe the SSPX can still teach you a thing or two...
Even more staggering is your equation of usurpation. Imagine that, privatisation: a LICIT ACT by a public authority where by ownership is GIVEN unto private hands and usurpation: an ILLICIT ACT by private hands whereby ownership is TAKEN from a public authority WITHOUT CONSENT. Incredible! Do you honestly think they are comparable? Is one really an “analogy” of the other?
I can, as you no doubt suspect, produce numerous examples of privatization analogies: “privatisation of decision-making”, “privatisation of production”, “privatisation of payment/finance”, “privatisation of knowledge”, “privatisation of life”, and so on. For example:
Environmental Infrastructure Management: Proceedings of the NATO Advanced Research Workshop, Kiev, Ukraine, April 30-May 4, 1995, ISBN 0792348664
Privatization and Culture: Experiences in the Arts, Heritage and Cultural Industries in Europe, P. B. Boorsma, Annemoon van Hemel, Niki van der Wielen, Springer 1998,
ISBN 0792384091
Competition and Ownership in Land Passenger Transport: Selected Papers from the 9th International Conference (Thredbo 9), Rosario Macario, José Manuel Viegas, David A. Hensher, Emerald Group Publishing 2007, ISBN 0080450954
Global Culture: Nationalism, Globalization and Modernity, Mike Featherstone, SAGE 1990, ISBN 0803983220
Property for People, Not for Profit: Alternatives to the Global Tyranny of Capital,
Ulrich Duchrow, Franz J. Hinkelammert, Elaine Griffiths, Konrad Raiser, CIIR 2004,
ISBN 1842774794
Economics of Knowledge, Dominique Foray, MIT Press, 2004,
ISBN 0262062399
Now, all the references above make use of one or more of the previous “privatization analogies”. All make reference to some public body or control and “none have the “private body” as the cause of the privatization. And just to be clear this is not an exhaustive list, I had literally hundreds to choose from. However, I am struggling to find one that mimics your “privatization analogy” Ches.
Or perhaps you would prefer a couple of specific examples on how to use the analogy of “privatisation of judgement”? Please read “A Long Way from Rome”, Chris McGillion, 2003, ISBN 1865089176) or Forensics (Public speaking),The Journal of the American Forensic Association, v.23-24 (1986-88) p.214, American Forensic Association). Both these publications use this phase and make reference to the actions of the “public body”.
So it would seem that the sound bite did not originate from you (even in a religious context), but, I note, you never claimed it did...
The too broad fallacy is a matter of judgement. In my judgment my usage does not break that rule. Your comparison of my use of privatisation with a boy 'privatising' candy from a shop is nonsense since this action involves transfer of a good (not a role) from one private individual to another private individual (not public to private).
In any case, an appearance cannot be said to be a cause of health in the same way a banana is, but I suppose you wouldn't have any problem in saying someone's appearance is healthy. So why fuss over the agency in the analogical use of the word privatisation?
The privatised role (SSPX's magisterial judgment) is indeed private from the public body (the Church); the 'limping' point of the comparison - omnis comparatio claudicat - is in the agent of transfer, but (how many times do you need telling?) it is analogy not a univocal statement.
I didn't conclude anything from reading any SSPX site. Kevin posted the comment, so take it up with him.
With regard to the SSPX's action, I'm quite happy to use 'usurp' in a univocal sense and 'privatisation' in an analogous sense, both of which
underline different aspects of the reality. I suppose you might struggle with the proposition that the devil is ontologically good but morally bad, but a Thomist wouldn't, and neither would any straight-thinking SSPX priest.
FINALLY AND IN ANY CASE, if you are happier with the consequences of using 'usurped' and 'usurpation', by all means copy and paste my article into Word and use 'find and replace' to change 'privatized' to 'usurped' or 'privatization' to 'usurpation'. I really couldn't care less about this semantic argument which you are sticking to with the obsessiveness of one who is refusing to deal with the text according to the author's stated intention. Perhaps if you do this, you will stop fussing over the semantics, and engage with the argument. Or are you afraid to do so?
"Yes, but once people know that the SSPX do not have faculties, how can those faculties be supplied on the basis of common error?"
Because common error of fact simply requires there be a situation where a community of believers could be induced that the priest has faculties. If this is the case, then faculties are supplied. It matters not if any in the community actually do believe the priest has faculties. This is why it is a "fiction of law".
This is not my opinion of common error, but it is the traditional interpretation of this provision echoed by Canon Lawyers before the Society even existed.
The key is that the Church has canons to discipline the priest in this situation, but it does not want to punish the faithful with an invalid sacrament.
I think I can see what you're saying now, Steve. I hope you're right; it would be tragic if you are wrong! I might just ask a few canonically qualified friends what they think.
Yes, Steve is right... I am a lawyer and I have studied the canonical question of common error : even if you know that SSPX has not jurisdiction, you can use the suppleed one based on common error...
--> But this is only in case of necessity !!!! <--
Then, if someone knows that SSPX has no faculties, if he is not in case of necessity and he still decides to confess to a SSPX priest, confession could be invalid and he perhaps commits a sin...
The "arguments" of Maggie are ridiculous ! Actually, she does not know there is a canonical notion of "private jugement" which fits completely with the topic.
my brother in christ , i have read your story. i am a ordinary african BOY who have never attended the latin mass. at 17 i bought the lives of saints. their lives have guided ME to the beauty of truth about christian truth ie catholism. SEE I MUCH I LOVE ST JOHN VIANNEY,over the years, i gradually noticed so much changeS in the church's TEACHINGS AND ACTIONS not just from lay catholic but priest and bishops.at times i fell betrayed by the church when the contracdiction btw the saint and tadys church ,does the truth change from pope to pope?, does it mean that that the church have been wrong until vatII?, is there a diffrent truth for the 21th century? What about the saints i struggle not just to admire but to immitate. i can only pray for the church, IF YOU PLACE THE NEW TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH AND THAT WHICH THE SSPX TRYS TO PRESERVE WITHOT ANY LABELS BEFORE INNOCENT CATHOLICs WHO DONOT EVEN KNOW OF THE CRISIS IN THE CHURCH, MANY WILL PICK THAT OF THE SSPX THINKING IT WAS THE TEACHING OF ROME . GOD BLESS THE CHURCH AND US.
i honestly ask for your prayers for i am prepapring to apply to the sspx seminary. i know it sound it sounds difficult, but what if sspx was not found will i ever hope to assit at the mass that have sent so many catholics to heaven for many centuries. a bishop died painfully, tring to preserve this mass yet people want to rejoce at the benefit of his struggle and yet reject him.
i cannot hate the church even if it's in error, i can only pray, for it is not we that save the church but in fact the churh that saves us for ABOVE us all and the pope there is GOD, our only judge.
you argue and condemn bishop marcel that he disobeyed the pope by the consecration of the bishops , yet you don't talk about the good bishops in union with rome who clearly disobey pope benedict's will in the moto proprio for the wider celebration of the latin mass. the probelm is simply, it's a crisis of truth over mediocrity.
Antoine,
What canon are you basing your opinion on that says common error applies only in a state of necessity?
Thanks,
Steve
Steve, I am not exactly right, actually !
Raoul Naze in his comments in 1917 code about canon 209 (in the new code 144) says that somebody who knows that the priest has no jurisdiction can still confesses because he takes advantage of the suppleed jurisdiction, and "any reasonable justification is sufficient"
So, what is "any reasonable justification" ? That the point ! I thought it was a state of necessity, but it is perhaps excessive ?
Anonymous, on 16 November: yes, isn't it unusual that I don't place the entire Church on trial? But since the SSPX make themselves judge and jury over so much of the rest of the Church, I somehow have less of a problem with taking them to task.
Anonymous with the CAPITALS: read the rule next time and give a name!
Meanwhile, I can frnakly tell you that it is a mistake to apply to the SSPX seminary. By all means drop em a line and I will explain why.
Antoine,
Great discovery! That was one of the reasons I decided to go to SSPX confessions. The Canon Law commentators all agreed that jurisdiction is supplied for common error of fact in that manner way before the SSPX were even a thought.
Check out Fr. Angles study for more examples...
http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/validity_of_confessions_1.htm
Thanks!
Is not the case of common error also connected to the assumption that the priest is already in canonical good standing and is not himself subject to canonical censure?
Question:
Do those of you who attend SSPX confessions have access to confession administered by a priest from an "ecclesia Dei" society, like the FSSP?
All things being equal, wouldn't it be far preferable to go to a FSSP priest and not have to twist oneself into an intellectual pretzel to justify going SSPX?
Just an honest question.
Ches said "Is not the case of common error also connected to the assumption that the priest is already in canonical good standing and is not himself subject to canonical censure?"
difficile de poursuivre en anglais, car le débat est très complexe. certains auteurs pensent que ne peut être suppléé qu'un défaut de juridiction canonique : défaut de juridiction dans l'espace ou dans le temps. Mais l'Eglise supplée-t-elle un manque total de juridiction ? Raoul Naze pense que le canon 209 (et donc le 144 du nouveau code) supplée les vices juridiques de droit ecclesiastique et non les vices de droit divin. Or les prêtres de la SSPX n'ont pas d'incardination ni dans un diocèse ni dans un ordre religieux. Ce défaut d'incardination peut-il être considéré comme un vice de droit divin ? Peut-être, car l'incardination correspond à la mission pastoral du Christ "je vous ai envoyés comme mon Père m'a envoyé" et sans cet envoi, il ne peut y avoir de mission canonique et il ne peut y avoir non plus de juridiction suppléée... En d'autres termes, l'Eglise supplée ce qui pourrait exister, pas ce qui n'existe pas ?
Antoine & Ches,
Jurisdiction would be supplied on a case by case basis to the SSPX priest for each confession based on common error of fact.
Canon Law would not grant some sort of status to the SSPX priest where he had full time jurisdiction. The jurisdiction is supplied only when triggered by common error and then it is granted for each penitent individually.
See the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JKgZEjvB5cEC&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=When+does+the+Church+supply+jurisdiction&source=web&ots=GI2NNDxr6g&sig=dw23I_1Zz6lRl8UCBzD0MaePsmM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law: Study Edition (Pages 192-194)
Common Error, Positive and Probable Doubt
Can. 144
1. In factual or legal common error and in positive and probable doubt of law or of fact, the Church supplies executive power of governance for both the external and internal forum.
2. The same norm is applied to the faculties mentioned in cann. 882, 883, 966, and 1111, 1.
It has been a traditional principle that in the interest of the community the Church supplies jurisdiction when a public ecclesial office-holder has placed an act for which he or she had no authority. Such jurisdiction concerns, however, only the executive power of governance. The Church supplies this power when the person acting was not given such power or was given it ineffectively, or when the act was placed after power granted had expired. Supplying the power of governance is a kind of transfer of the power of governance; it is not a sanction.
It should be noted that the Church supplies the power of governance for the common good or the avoidance of general harm. This implies that normally the prescribed formalities of the law are applicable, but that in certain circumstances because of the common good the Church supplies the lacking executive power.
The Church can supply executive power of governance only for cases where the person acting would have been capable (habiles) of exercising executive power. Thus, it could never supply a lay person the power to hear a confession, because a lay person is not capable under any circumstance of hearing a confession.
The Church supplies the executive power of governance only when there is a common error which is either factual or legal or when there is a positive and probable doubt. Error is a false judgment. Such an error must be probable, ie., it must be of such a nature that it is capable of gaining the assent of a prudent person. Hence, it is not simply ignorance. The error is to be common, not private; that is, it is to affect some sort of community. Such a community does not necessarily have to be a canonically established community in the sense of a diocese, parish, or religious community. It could also be a community gathered together for an occasion. That an error is "common" does not mean that a majority of those present hold something to be true, but that there is a public circumstance in which all reasonable persons would naturally conclude that it is true. Thus, to establish common error, it is sufficient that a majority of people, when asked, would reply erroneously to the question. It is also not necessary that in fact a certain number of people actually do make the error, for the Church supplies power when, objectively speaking, reasonable persons would make the error. Common error is also not restrict to situations which occur regularly; it may also be applied to an isolated event, that is a case in which a priest receives the profession of a religious of a pontifical institute of consecrated life without having been delegated by the legitimate superior to do so (c. 656, 5).
Although the canon presupposes the existence of common error, occasions might arise when common error could be induced, e.g., when a priest has no faculty to hear confession, but enters the confessional because many people want to confess and he is sure that in the given situation people will think he has jurisdiction. In such a situation the Church will supply the faculty.
The second part of the first paragraph concerns positive and probable doubt either about the law or about a fact. Doubt is a state in which the mind is not able to make a decision between contradictory conclusions. Doubt is a positive when there are probable reasons for one or both decisions, and it is negative when there is too little information to support either. The doubt may be probable or improbable, depending on the strength of the foundation. Doubt may have to do with the law, namely, its existence, binding force, meaning, extension, or cessation. Doubt may also have to do with the facts in the sense there is uncertainty with regard to whether a situation contains all that it necessary for the law to be applicable to it. Examples would be whether the number of cases for which delegated power was granted has been completed (cf. c. 142); or whether danger of death really exists when a dispensation from a marriage impediment is given (cf. c. 1079).
In the case of positive and probable doubt, the Church supplies the power of governance for both the internal and the external forum.
The second paragraph states that the canon applies to the faculties mention in canon 883 on the sacrament of confirmation, and canon 1111, 1 on assisting as an official witness at a wedding. Furthermore, the canon applies to the executive power of all superiors and chapters in institutes of consecrated life (c. 596, 3).
The principles mentioned in this canon are applicable to all delegated faculties. It is not clear whether they also apply to someone who has been delegated invalidly for one particular act.
It still isn't clear to me but I suppose I should ask a canon lawyer for an opinion. I understood that even the SSPX admit their arguments on this point work by analogy rather than by strict application of established laws, whereas the drift of your interventions, Steve, is that their reasoning is perfectly within the ambit of established canonical jurisprudence. I'm off to find out!
Its nice that everyone wants to argue about the validity of SSPX confessions, but it is really quite pointless. The responses from the Ecclesia Dei Commission I have seen have always maintained the invalidity of SSPX confessions, except in danger of death, or if the individual is ignorant of the SSPX priests lack of faculties. I have a physical copy of one of these responses received by friend of mine a couple of years ago. He was very upset about it, refused to accept it, and is now attending an SSPX chapel.
The people with authority in these matters have never given any credence to the SSPX's arguments in regards to the validity of their confessions or marriages for the matter. They have in fact said the opposite.
We should heed official responses of the Church (even responses to private individuals) in these matters.
Ignatius,
I am not aware of any response of Ecclesia Dei to a dubitum on this topic, but I am most interested to hear that there is one. If you can point to a source on the net or elsewhere for this, I'd be most grateful.
Ches.
Ches,
Re Ignatius' post.
This is dealt with in para of the Ecclesia Dei letter 539/99 of 28 September 1999:
http://www.unavoce.org/Protocol539-99.htm
"Concretely this means that the Masses offered by the priests of
the Society of St. Pius X are valid, but illicit i.e., contrary to Canon
Law. The Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony, however, require that the
priest enjoys the faculties of the diocese or has proper delegation. Since
that is not the case with these priests, these sacraments are invalid. It
remains true, however, that, if the faithful are genuinely ignorant that the
priests of the Society of St. Pius X do not have the proper faculty to
absolve, the Church supplied these faculties so that the sacrament was valid
(cf. Code of Canon Law c. 144)."
Ecclesia Dei, in private correspondence, has only stated what we already know.
1.) SSPX priests don't have ordinary jurisdiction
and
2.) In cases of genuine ignorance the sacrament is valid.
The private letters do not touch on or discuss any of the other Canon Law provisions for supplied jurisdiction including the primary provision the SSPX relies on, common error of fact.
Excellent presentation. There are many, I believe, who are slowly coming to the same conclusion.
“Anonymous” said:
“You make obedience to the Pope and infallibility almost the sole key, thus going far beyond Pastor Aeternus. Christ did not found his Church so that the Pope would have a society to do whatever he pleases with. Or did He?”
Well, now that you mention it - He did. By obedience we mean it in the same sense as in Pastor Aeternus - that of complete submission to the solemn prerogatives of the Pope, not only in matters of faith and morals, but in all matters dealing directly with Primacy of Jurisdiction. This Primacy demands that all Catholics must be subject to the Pope in his discipline and government of the Church. Vatican I also declared that to deny this truth entails loss of Catholic faith and salvation.
Unfortunately, it would seem a large portion of those who consider themselves traditional Catholics have done precisely this very thing. Pastor Aeternus:
“…For none can doubt, and it is known to all ages, that the holy and Blessed Peter, the Prince and chief of the Apostles, the pillar of the faith and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of mankind, and lives, presides and judges to this day, always in his successors the Bishops of the Holy See of Rome, which was founded by Him and consecrated by His Blood. Whence, whosoever succeeds to Peter in this See does by the institution of Christ Himself obtain the primacy of Peter over the whole Church. The disposition made by Incarnate Truth (dispositio veritatis) therefore remains, and Blessed Peter, abiding in the rock's strength which he received (in accepta fortitudine petrae perseverans), has not abandoned the direction oldie Church.”
Not only does this suggest that our Lord allows His Vicar to set the direction of His Church, even if it appears to be a break with the past, He positively wills that direction, most likely as a punishment for our collective (and centuries old) indifference towards the true faith.
In his book, “War Against the Papacy”, James Larson wrote:
“We have reached a point in our discussion of the Catholic concept of obedience where it becomes obvious that the demands of our faith run absolutely counter to what might be called the "religion" of our culture. The Catholic truth regarding the virtue and necessity of obedience may be stated in the following manner:
‘For a Catholic, the demands of supernatural charity, according to the Will of God, can supersede the demands of natural justice and natural reason.’
Christ's offering of Himself on the Cross defies all natural justice and reason. It makes no rational sense to us that the Infinitely Good God should suffer infinite pain for man who is nothing in himself. Christ's obedience to the Cross is an act of supernatural charity which supersedes natural justice and reason, while at the same time satisfying supernatural justice. We also are called to this same "unreasonable" obedience and charity: "For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps." (1 Pet 2:21)
We are used to thinking of the Papacy as something which guarantees truth in Christ's Church. And so it is. Equally important, however, is the fact that Christ established His Church on the Rock of the Papacy in order to guarantee charity and the continual flow of reparative grace within His Mystical Body. This "charity through obedience" is not an option. It is a demand of our faith. The dogma of the Papal Primacy locks us into a sacrificially obedient love towards the Papacy in much the same way as marriage locks spouses into a sacrificial relationship to one another and to the sacrament which they have received. We have previously quoted St. Gregory's statement, "Divine Justice provides shepherds according to the just desserts of the faithful." We may now look at this statement in a deeper light. Bad shepherds are not just a punishment. They are a wound in our own Body which requires the reparative grace of our suffering charity. They are a specific call from God for an increase in this charity.
It is therefore astonishing, in any real Catholic sense, that this moment in history which is characterized by so many poor shepherds has called forth from many who are most ready to call themselves traditional Catholics, not reparation and suffering obedience in imitation of Christ, but reviling and rebellion in imitation of the one who hates the cross of Christ. It simply is not true that we are faced with only two choices – either to fight them or join them in their errors. Christ did neither of these. He chose a third way, the way of the Cross. Nor does this mean that we are forced to surrender ourselves to the pervasive influence of Modernism within most dioceses. The family and its divinely mandated authority for the rearing of children is prior to any diocesan authority. We have the perfect right and obligation to protect our children from the errors of priests or bishops.
The rebellion against the Papal Primacy of Jurisdiction is possibly the most insidious fruit of Liberalism. It is a revolution so pervasive that it unites and spans the distance between a Hans Kung and an Archbishop Lefebvre. It denies the Church of its very lifeblood, of that grace produced by suffering, obedient love which is necessary for the fulfillment of Christ's mission for the Church: the conversion of the nations. If there is anything that appears most striking about the Church at this moment in history, it is its apparent weakness. The Church seems drained of power. Priests have no power to resist the temptations of the world. The Pope seems to have no power over bishops, clergy, or religious. The Catholic man or woman in the world has no power to defend his or her faith against either militant secularism or Fundamentalism. Catholic works without a Catholic Heart is impossible. Faith without works is dead. We have become impotent because we have become independent. We must pray for the grace to return to the "first love" and "first works" which is the Cross of Christ, and, the power that overcomes the world.”
Michael posted:
"Nor does this mean that we are forced to surrender ourselves to the pervasive influence of Modernism within most dioceses. The family and its divinely mandated authority for the rearing of children is prior to any diocesan authority. We have the perfect right and obligation to protect our children from the errors of priests or bishops."
But, by your logic wouldn't we then be setting ourselves up against our pastor, Bishop, or even Rome by judging what is or is not Modernist? What if our parish is not overtly Modernist, but ambiguously modernist? And how can we fight against rock masses, folk masses, girl altar boys, communion in the hand, female lectors, and extraordinary ministers, when all of these practices are sanctioned by Rome?
Having to fulfill our Sunday obligation, how do we protect our families when this is the only Mass available for miles? Are we then entitled to go to an SSPX Chapel? Or risk losing the faith by frequently attending banal nonsense out of obedience?
It's becoming so tiresome, reading the half-baked writings of nobodies who seem to know nothing about tradition.
I believe I'm finished, as a traditional Catholic who assists at the SSPX mass, was married by them, goes to confession to them, had all my children baptised by them, etc., with reading stuff like this.
You people will "reason" your way right out into outer space.
The pope cannot break with tradition, period. He cannot do it. If you define tradition in one word, "obedience" you're off your nut.
If you want to pretend the pope has no limitations, fine... do it. But you're headed to protestantism, papal idolatry, and God knows what else.
If you want to go to the Novus Ordo mass, do it. If you want to pretend we would be having this conversation without the actions and sufferings of Archbishop Lefebvre, then do it. No one can really do anything to stop you.
What traditional Catholics, who understand the situation for what it is, should do is continue reading and praying.
The would be theologist bloggers are a complete waste of time.
Willingly complying with the state of the Novus Ordo church and its protestant play called the mass, is not a form of suffering... it's a form of insanity.
Let's support the pope and the novus ordo Church in their incessant mockery of the Catholic Faith, Her martyrs and saints, and her mass... Somehow we will merit grace by doing this... because after all it's not about common sense, logic or tradition. It's about obeying for the sake of obeying... no matter what, when, where, how or why...
The pope cannot break with tradition. Please say this to yourselves fifty times a day... every day, for the rest of your lives.
Steve Sanborn
Sir, I hardly know where to begin. Reading your "treatise" made my head ache. What is a woman of average intelligence suppose to make of it? I prayed to the Holy Ghost to comprehend what you are saying.
I was born in 1954. I have always disliked the changes in the Church. I never heard of the Archbishop until I was a postulant in Carmel in 1984 when another novice received his name to pray for him. To make a long story short, I recently went back to the SSPX after trying for seven years to reintegrate myself back into the church. I live in the Diocese of Spokane - bad. Yes, yes, you'll tell me (maybe) about the sedevacantist sisters who recently came back to the Church here but there's more to that story.
My primary concern is the salvation of my soul. I do not want to lose it. My life has been a living hell; I don't want my eternity to be one too.
The biggest damage that has been done to myself that I can tell is the huge question mark - the constant doubt. Is Our Lord really here in the novus ordo church? Is this priest really a priest? Is the holy water as good as that blessed with the pre-VII blessing? Does the priest (assuming he is one) believe as the church does and, therefore, has the consecration really taken place? And on and on - I'm sure someone can relate to this. Quite frankly, it seems diabolical to me - this constant doubt, the constant question mark about everything.
We're an exceedingly poor family. We not only cannot afford to be driving all over the diocese in search of a decent Mass but I have come to really resent the fact that I have had to since the very early 1980's.
Can you help me? Can you put what you wrote in simpler terms for me and sum it up in a few sentences?
God bless you. I stumbled upon this "accidently". I am not computer literate and only know how to do an "anonymous" post. Sorry. But my name is Marian.
Steve,
Since you despair of my reason, I do hope you'll pray for me. But you'll allow me to think your summary is a pretty silly and reductionist caricature of what I've written.
****************************
Marian,
To sum up in a few sentences my position, the SSPX asks many good questions about the current problems in the Church. They also have some of the right answers. However, the way they have taken matters into their own hands is wrong. This is especially the case with episcopal ordinations against papal mandate, exercising free criticism of Vatican II, and criticising the new liturgy not only for abuse (in which we all join them) but as a rite essentially harmful to the faith. In the long term, I believe the slight mistakes they have made in the principles will lead to a long-term break.
Practically speaking, I know very little of your circumstances, but let me suggest the following. For you and your husband, make sure your own family home is a Christian one, that the children learn the catechism, that they have a formation in Christian, morals, sensibilities and manners, and that your own marriage is a model of the love of Christ and the Church. I have written elsewhere that if your own local situation is unbearable and there is an SSPX Mass available, go. The Church allows Catholics at least to fulfil their Sunday obligation there. Meanwhile, I'm betting there will be one or two older priests (and quite possibly one or two younger ones) who would sympathise greatly with your situation and hear your confessions. Pray about it, seek them out, network with other families in a similar situation if you can.
As for the constant doubts of which you speak, who has taught you to doubt in this manner? Firstly, trust that the Church continues to be able to sanctify her children as before with her sacraments and her blessings. Don't let a doubt about a priest fester, but speak to him in private and tell him you need reassuring about his faith in the Eucharist. Don't accuse him; just speak gently and present your anxieties.
My article does not mean everything is rosy in the Church by any means. But it does argue that the path we have to take should maintain our visible unity with the shepherds whom God has placed over us, most especially the Holy Father, but the bishops too as far as is possible. That is not blind obedience but an exercise of faith in Christ's promises.
I hope that helps. By all means contact me privately if you prefer by clicking on the email link in my blogger profile.
Apparently, you're not willing to accept posts from those who disagree with you. Some forum.
Steve Sanborn
You just said I was a half-baked nobody, and made a number of other enitrely gratuitous ad hominem remarks. In that light, the very fact I even published your comment is a proof of the fact I am not ungracious with regard to those who disagree with me. You however are.
After all, your comment was published. What more do you want?
Pardon. I was expecting you to publish posts at the top of the screen... my mistake. If you wish to pull the last comment or publish this one as follow up, either way. Thanks, and sorry about my confusion.
Steve Sanborn
A gracious reply! No offense taken, Steve. God bless.
Mr. Sudlow:
I would contact you privately but I do not have e-mail. I try to avoid getting too involved with the internet. Charity is not one of my strengths.
Thank you for your kind response. You asked who taught me to doubt. That's a good question. Not any one group or person but a combination of many groups and people. As I said, it's diabolical, is it not? I would, however, if I ever get the chance, like to ask an exorcist in the Church about the holy water blessings - new vs. old.
Marian
This is by way of a response (late as it is but atill relevant) to Steve who asked what is "a state of necessity":
The SSPX posited this qualifier (a set the conditions, if you will):
[i]"The state of necessity, as it is explained by jurists, is a state in which the necessary goods for natural or supernatural life are so threatened that one is morally compelled to break the law in order to save them."[/i]
The question to pose should be: "What situation would it be when the state of necessity could not exist?"
It is where ordinary jurisdiction exists and where "natural and supernatural life" are not threatened -- e.g., the FSSP and the SSPX within an equitable distance of each other -- the SSPX in this situation has no faculties. "Common error," "positive probable doubt," "the right of the faithful asking for the Sacraments" (quoted by SSPX), would not apply to those who hold that the priestly faculties of the SSPX are suspended ([i]a divinis[/i]). They go to confession or get married at the risk of their own souls. I don't believe Christ will hold any amount of Canon Law quotes as relevant.
Pax.
I always understood the breaking of the law in the state of necessity to be dependent on the inaccessibility of the law giver. That in fact is why the SSPX argue JPII was 'inaccessible' in 1988.
The SSPX would, I believe, still argue they have faculties even if the FSSP are nearby. But that has more to do with ideology than with canon law.
Mattheus,
Where are you getting the quote for the definition of "necessity"? Is that a quote from the SSPX?
Common error of law and fact are not based on "necessity", thus SSPX confessions would be valid on these bases no matter if an FSSP Chapel were next door. Also an excommunicated priest is allowed to absolve if asked for any "just reason" under canon law.
Steve,
I'd be grateful if you could provide the name of a recognised canonical authority who maintains the validity of SSPX confessions along the lines you have argued.
Cappello, De Poenitentia, 1944, #340ss. declares as certain the opinion which requires for common error factum externum et publicum ex quo fideles necessario in errorem inducantur. And in the same article, # 342, he gives as an example of such sufficient fact the one of a priest without licenses entering the confessional signifying that he is ready to hear confessions. In this circumstance, Cappello says, sive ille sacerdos plures aut paucos audiat poenitentes, sive forte nullum, habetur iam antecedenter communis error ortus ex praefatis adiunctis.
Bucceroni, Casus Conscientiae, 6 edit. 129, 5. Well before the Old Code of 1917, this known author considers sufficient a virtual common error in order to obtain the suppliance of jurisdiction.
Pugliese, in Palazzini's Dictionary of Moral Theology, 1962, article Jurisdiction, Supplied: the Church supplies jurisdiction in a case of common error. The error may be due to a false conviction concerning the possession of the required jurisdiction. It is necessary, however, that this conviction arise from a positive fact which would cause the faithful reasonably to assume that the priest had the required jurisdiction. A case in point might be . . . that of the priest who, acting as if he had jurisdiction, occupies the confessional or imparts absolution, when in fact he has no jurisdiction . . . (Common error) is called error of law when it stems or may stem from a fact which of itself is such as to lead many people into error even though in fact no one errs. Today it is generally held (and such an interpretation may be called certain) that the error of law is sufficient to require that jurisdiction be supplied.
Lombardía, Código de Derecho Canónico, 1983, in his commentary to New Code Canon 144: Common error of law is the one which refers in some way to the interpretation of the juridical norms which regulate the exercise of the power of jurisdiction. In order to obtain the suppliance of power, it is necessary that the error has its foundation on a public fact, firm and solid, capable of producing such error, and that the application of the suppliance may have an incidence in the general interest and benefit. This has a particular application to the usual faculties for hearing confessions, to assist to marriages and to the cases contemplated in Canon 883 concerning the minister of confirmation.
Vidal, Jus Canonicum, II, 1923, p.369 affirms that there is common error in the sense of the Canon when there is a public fact which in itself suffices to provoke an error.
Those quotations support your major premiss. What about authorities to support your minor premiss?
I've already posted a link to John Salza's opinion. I know he is a lawyer. Not sure if he is a Canon Lawyer.
I will do some research and get back with you.
Are you saying you want a Canon Lawyer post- 1970's who says that the Society's confessions are valid under supplied jurisdiction?
For what purpose? Would it convince you if one said so?
Steve,
The quote on the "State of Necessity" is from the SSPX website:
http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q11_abexcommunicated.htm
CIC 1323 is explained in Footnote No. 1 (as quoted previously).
"A person who violates a law out of necessity* is not subject to a penalty (1983 Code of Canon Law, canon 1323, §4), even if there is no state of necessity[1]"
The SSPX's raison d'tre is their appeal to the state of "necessity" or "emergency." Granted, the conciliar church is not, in many areas, in the business of saving souls, and the SSPX fills the urgent need to do what the Church has been enjoined to do: the salvation of souls.
This may have been the case until at least 10 or 15 years ago, but it is no longer the case at the present time. We seem to have a bad taste of the mouth whenever we hear of the "conciliar" or "novus Ordo," Church, as if these "churches" have defaulted or absconded, flown the coop, or hightailed from their Catholic duty. Those who have are very much in isolated instances and not to be generalized. Further, we don't seem to regard the great number of traditional priestly orders that have been filling the void these past 10 or so years. Thus I don't see how common error of law and fact play in this situation where valid orders (i.e., not suspended and ilicit) are available. There is no threat to the spiritual welfare of souls within this vicinity. I see that this is how things stack up when a bishop calls in the FSSP or ICK, et al., when he finds the SSPX is in his diocese.
"Also an excommunicated priest is allowed to absolve if asked for any 'just reason' under canon law."
Not for just any "just reason" but only in the face of imminent death and where no Catholic priest is available, otherwise the excommunicated priest has no power to absolve sins. I would think that an Act of Perfect Contrition would suffice in this case.
Pax.
Ches,
Since the SSPX did not appeal to the principle of "epikeia," the excuse that the lawgiver (the pope) was "inaccessible" is moot.
That the SSPX "would still argue they have faculties even if the FSSP are nearby" is what the theory of "common error of law and fact" appeals so much to its followers because its polemics in reasoning, such as it is at least difficult to impeach because of the many ways around its definition.
I believe the only time "common error" is valid is when a Catholic arrives at a church outside his known surroundings, intent in going to confession, sees a line at the confessional and takes his place in line. Error is then not imputed to him.
Is this the correct understanding of those who hold on to the suspended faculties of the SSPX?
Pax.
Fr. Domenico was apparently using supplied jurisdiction and was later regularized by Rome. Here are his words...
http://www.angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12591
"Firstly, I am not aware of any declaration of Rome saying that the confessions are invalid. Those priests who are regularized by Rome, as I was, are not told to re-confess their sins.
The question comes down to this: does the ecclesiastical law exist for the sake of the salvation of souls or the other way around? The rule in canon law is always to interpret things in the way which is least burdensome for the faithful. I guess it all boils down to whether there is a crisis or not. If there is no crisis, then the SSPX has no argument for supplied jurisdiction. But if there is a crisis, then you have to take all the logical consequences which flow from that. As Pius XII said, and by saying this repeated the whole tradition of canon law: "the salvation of souls is the supreme law". When an merely ecclesiastical law interferes with that law, then the higher law takes precedence. The very concept of supplied jurisdiction, which is in the law itself, demonstrates the desire of the Church that the faithful not suffer spiritual harm if the ordinary channels are not possible.
Now given the fact that many confessors with ordinary jurisdiction dissent from the moral teaching of the Church in a number of ways, it is not safe to approach them, since it is not allowed to put one's faith in danger in that way. So where are they to go? Are all the faithful required to be moral theologians so that they can sift through what the confessor says? Obviously not. But again, it all boils down to whether there is a crisis or just a minor problem in the Church..."
Another regularized priest in full communion says that Society confessions and Marriages are valid..
http://www.angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12591
I translated a response from the blogsite of fr. laguerie which deals with the validity of sspx sacraments and supplied jurisdiction. Since it is recent, I hope it fits into news (Feb 12).
"Dear Sir,
Firstly, bravo for having given all the sacraments to your children within Tradition. It is certainly not me who is going to reproach someone for either having or having had recourse to Saint Nicholas de Chardonnet in a domain where the Church asks us to be tutiorists, that is, to go to that which is more sure... That which has been done has been well done, and shall remain so, thanks be to God. I pray everyday for the hundreds (thousands?) of the baptised whom I introduced into the Kingdom of Heaven, in particular those hundreds of adults during the Paschal Vigil (29 on one night alone: a good day!) May God keep them in the Faith and in piety.
As far as the regularization of all that, it is of only a relative and secondary importance. Each thing in it's own time. I have always thought that supplied jurisdiction stops where ordinary jurisdiction begins. And vice versa! It is not because now I have this ordinary jurisdiction that I am going to throw stones at those who continue at the moment to use the other. Who can seriously say that he will not have need of it one day? When the Archbishop of Paris will have welcomed Fr. de Tanoüarn as the one of Bordeaux has welcomed me, everything will be put into order as easily at Paris as at Bordeaux.
While waiting, rest easy: your children have been well baptized [meaning validly and licitly-trans.], well confirmed, well confessed, and well married. When Cardinal Marty gave Confirmation, contenting himself merely to shake hands with the subjects, and saying to them simply, without oil or imposition of hands, "I send you forth on mission", admit that you would not have had the same tranquility! You would have been sure, rather, that your child was not confirmed. You know the grace of supplied [jurisdiction]; I have always thought that the poor laypeople, abused by the depraved clergy had much more need of it than us. In the 1970's, a number of priests after Mass put the consecrated Hosts into the storage area of the sacristy any old way with the supplies; and it is we who should have scruples now for having fled away from these weird ministers to trust true priests of Our Lord!
They have done far too much for us to forget the past- enough for us to keep hold of our common sense. isn't that what the English said?
Just learned that the previous priest I quoted is the Superior General of the Institute of the Good Shepard!
Steve,
I think you mistake my thinking a little. It's up to the Church and, ultimately, to God whether the SSPX adminster confession and marriage validly. The reason I asked for a a recent, recognised authority which supported the application of your major premiss to the SSPX case was because I am interested in whether the arguments made by traditionalists are recognised further afield.
When I first broke with the SSPX, I was pretty certain these SSPX ministered sacraments were unsafe. I haven't really changed that position, but I'm much more inclined these days to say that it's for the Church to judge.
As for Fr Domenico's argument - I knew him many years ago incidentally - the minor premiss is shifting all the time, and by and large in favour of orthodoxy. I used to think it would be impossible to find a good confessor in the mainstream. Now, I have come across a couple of duds, but the rest have been fine.
I certainly hope and pray the argument you're advancing is correct. But, finally, it's not for me to say.
I understand wath you are saying, but as far as I'm personally concerned, a "conservative" canon lawyer agreeing that the SSPX has supplied jurisdiction might be helpful, but really wouldn't add much to the debate.
For the most part "conservative" or "mainstream" canon lawyers don't have the SSPX or their sacraments on their radar screen.
From the research I've done, one can see very clearly how the canons of common error of law and fact were understood WAY before the SSPX. The situation of SSPX confessions fits these examples given by Canon Lawyers pre and post VCII like a glove. I can't see how they do not. Of course lawyers can and will argue about anything legal, I know, I am one. But what credible argument could a Canon Lawyer have that there is no common error of law at Society Chapels? I don't think he would have a case.
Especially since the canons on positive and probable doubt kick in and make the validity certain for the salvation of souls. So there is even an added buffer if the jurisdiction is doubtful.
As for the Church, they would have a moral responsibility to shout from the rooftops if millions of Catholics were confessing invalidly and risking Hell. Yet what has been their reaction? They publicly keep silence. Since I don't think Rome or the Pope would knowingly do nothing as millions fall to Hell on a Canonical misunderstanding.
We can see the mind of Rome through their action (or lack of action). When priests are regularized they are not asked to give general confessions. When groups of laity are "regularized" like Campos and those who went to Society priests and switch to FSSP priests in '88, they are never told they need to give general confessions.
In addition Rome has never addressed the question of supplied jurisdiction as applied to the Society. In a private letter, Msgr. Perl merely stated general rules we already know. Namely that confessions are ordinarily invalid if the priest lacks ordinary jurisdiction, but that one exception is ignorance of this fact (common error of fact). Perl remains absolutely silent on the other Canons that clearly apply.
The same goes on with the "excommunications". A general rule is stated that consecrating bishops without papal mandate brings about an automatic excommunication. But the obvious exceptions in Canon Law to this penalty are ignored and never discussed.
This is why I think it is politics. Just as the Mass being de facto abrogated for 40 years, Rome keeping silence, and then Rome finally publicly stating that it was never abrogated. I think you'll see the same move on the ecommunications. I think the Vatican is silent and moving slowly because of the fierce liberal opposition to the Society among the Bishops.
In the future you will finally see the exceptions in Canon Law applied to the '8 consecrations and the "excommunications" declared null.
You may be right about the confessions. Let's hope that you are! But I'm not at all confident your prediction about the consecrations will come about.
We shall see. A million rosaries, have a lot of power! ;)
Also I apologize for the frequent typos in my last post. I was trying to type too fast.
Now this argument I can understand! Speaking for myself, I'd rather be safe and go toward the more certain than the "maybe" when it comes to being absolved from my sins. After all, the salvation of my soul is at stake.
Has anyone ever consulted a canon lawyer in the Church that is sympathetic to tradition (such as Bishop Salvatore Cordeleone of San Diego) about this?
Marian
Marian,
There is a separate canon that takes care of positive and probable doubt in the case of common error, thereby meaning you can be certain Society confessions under this canon are valid. The first rule of Canon Law is the salvation of souls!
http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/validity_of_confessions_2.htm
3. SUPPLIED JURISDICTION IN CASE OF POSITIVE AND PROBABLE DOUBT
3.1. The Canons on Common Error and Positive Probable Doubt:
In errore communi aut in dubio positivo et probabili sive iuris sive facti, iurisdictionem supplet Ecclesia pro foro tum externo tum interno. (Canon 209)
In common error or in positive probable doubt whether of fact or law, the Church supplies jurisdiction both for the external and the internal forum. (Canon 209)
#1. In errore communi de facto aut de iure, itemque in dubio positivo et probabili sive iuris sive facti, supplet Ecclesia, pro foro tam externo quam interno, potestatem regiminis exsecutivam.
#2. Eadem norma applicatur facultatibus de quibus in cann. 883, 966, et 1111, #1. (New Code Canon 144)
#1. In common error about fact or about law, and also in positive ad probable doubt about law or about fact, the Church supplies executive power of governance both for the external and for the internal forum.
#2. This same norm applies to the faculties mentioned in cann. 883, 966 and 1111,1. (New Code Canon 144)
3.2. Notions
Who is exempt from doubts? Especially when navigating in the not-always-clear waters of Canon Law, some anxiety or scruple may appear. As an example, the case of common error before the New Code: in common error of law, does the Church supply jurisdiction? Some authors answered in the affirmative —we quoted many of them already —and some were opposed to it. There was indeed a DOUBT whether the law of suppliance applied or not in that case. The solution was to be found in Canon 209: as long as the doubt is positive and probable, Ecclesia supplet, and so, if the minister acted in the hypothesis that the error of law sufficed, the Church supplied jurisdiction, even though it may have happened that in fact such error was not sufficient.
DOUBT is that state of mind in which the intellect suspends judgment between two or more opposed propositions; the intellect cannot assent to one or the other without the fear of erring. If the mind assents to one of these propositions with prudent fear that the contrary might be true, such a state is called OPINION. This, too, in a broad sense may be regarded as doubt. A consultation of any moral treatise De Conscientia will confirm it.
A doubt is POSITIVE if there are serious motives of an objective foundation for assenting to two or more of the opposed propositions; it is NEGATIVE if the entire reason for doubt consists in the absence of motives capable of provoking prudent assent. Positive doubt is always PROBABLE doubt, since the motives on either side are serious ones.
DOUBT OF LAW is verified when there is a doubt concerning the existence or the extent of the law. DOUBT OF FACT is present when it is question whether or not a particular fact or circumstance is verified.
By virtue of Canon 209, New Code Canon 144, the Church supplies jurisdiction of either the internal or the external forum in positive and probable doubt either of law or of fact.
Let us see some authors in order to complete and understand better this consoling doctrine, which resolves so many difficulties.
Regatillo and Zalba, op. cit., # 403: Si est dubium positivum et probabile seu fundatum, iuris vel facti, supplet (Ecclesia), etsi sit privatum, i. e. unius vel alterius, non publicum; nam canon non distinguit. Sed ut suppleat, dubium iuris debet esse obiectivum, i. e. fundatum in ipsa lege, quae clara non sit aut diversimode a doctoribus intelligatur.
Van Kol, op. cit., # 316: In errore communi sacerdos semper valide absolvit omnes ad sese accedentes, etiam paucos illos qui defectum iurisdictionis forte noscant. Attamen illicite agit sacerdos qui absqui gravi ratione errorem communem provocat.
Woywood-Smith, A Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, 1962, # 162: Generally speaking, a negative doubt means that one has no reason to serve as a basis for deciding a question, and it is about equal to ignorance on that question. A positive doubt means that one has a good reason for deciding a question one way, but that there is also a reason in favor of a contrary decision of the question. For example, the reasons for and against the existence of jurisdiction in a certain case create a positive doubt; and if the reasons on both sides are of such weight so as to create a bona fide doubt, the Church supplies the jurisdiction, even though actually the person did not possess it.
3.3. What is Required to Use Supplied Jurisdiction in Case of Doubt?
Is it LICIT? When? The authors are clear, even the strictest ones: NO REASON OR A VERY LIGHT ONE is required to use supplied jurisdiction on the grounds of Canon 209.
Cappello, op.cit. # 257, 4: In dubio positivo et probabili iuris sacerdos valide et licite utitur iurisdictione, v.g. absolvit, etiam SINE CAUSA, quia Ecclesia CERTO supplet. Porro causa illiceitatis foret vel damnum poenitentis vel irreverentia erga sacramentum seu periculum nullitatis; atqui ex can. 209 utrumque abest; ergo. Quod valet, generatim, etiam ubi agitur de dubio positivo et probabili facti.
Cabreros, Lobo and Morán, Comentarios al Código de Derecho Canónico, 1963, vol. 1, # 512: La sentencia moral más generalizada afirma que para usar lícitamente de la potestad suplida en caso de duda positiva y probable, tanto del sujeto activo como del pasivo, basta una causa leve.
Merkelbach, Summa Theologiae Moralis, 1949, De Sacramentis, # 586: Ad utendum autem dubia iurisdictione, in dubio, scil. positivo et probabili sive iuris sive facti, specialis ratio necessitatis non requiritur.
3.4. Does it Also Apply to Marriages?
Yes, it does. Canon 209 does not make any restriction in the suppliance of jurisdiction, and even though the assistance to marriages is not strictly speaking an act of jurisdiction but a simple administrative act, we have already seen when treating common error that it must be considered under the circumstances contemplated by Canon 209.
The New Code is explicit, Canon 144, #2, applying the same norm to the faculties required in order to assist to marriages.
Lazzarato, op. cit., presents in cause # 893 the case of an Austrian priest in Russia who blessed one marriage without having the required faculties and without fulfilling the conditions for common error. I copy some of the points which refer to our case: Valide assistit matrimoniis qui parochus putativus est ratione can. 209. Ecclesia iurisdictionem supplet publicae utilitatis causa, si minister, suae potestatis haud certus, putat tamen, se iurisdictionem habere, ob dubium grave et probabile, seu ob gravem rationem, sive iuris sive etiam facti, qua ad suam iurisdictionem affirmandam movetur.
3.5. Application to Our Case
It cannot be more clear: when the minister has an objective doubt, founded on the law itself or on the authoritative interpretation of the law, concerning the existence of his jurisdiction, the Church supplies the jurisdiction, even though the minister may have no jurisdiction at all.
Let us see some of the many practical applications which illustrate this doctrine:
A priest of the Society of Saint Pius X doubts about the existence of common error for confessions or for marriages in his chapel. He realizes that there are many canonical reasons and arguments for it, but he still doubts because the Bishop or the chancellor of the diocese say that such absolutions and marriages are invalid. The Church supplies jurisdiction because his doubt of law is positive and probable.
The same priest is taking care of a sick person and, even though there are many indications that the patient is getting worse, he doubts whether there is or is not a danger of death. Can he administer the Sacrament of Confirmation validly using the faculties of New Code Canon 883, 3? Yes, he can, because in a positive and probable doubt of fact the Church will certainly supply the jurisdiction which he may not have if the patient is actually not in danger of death.
The same scrupulous priest wonders if the extraordinary form of marriage contemplated in Canon 1098, New Code Canon 1116, is to be applied to the case of a couple who considers that they have no moral access to the Modernist parish priest. After hearing their reasons, he realizes that they have serious motives in arguing a grave spiritual danger and therefore impossibility of moral access to a Modernist parish priest. He can be at peace because, in the worst case, his doubt of fact and of law puts him in a state in which the Church will supply for the jurisdiction required to validly assist to such marriage.
Our Hamletic priest is now trying to justify this particular absolution on the grounds of Canon 2261, New Code Canon 1135, which recognizes to any faithful the right to ask a Sacrament or Sacramental from an excommunicated priest, a fortiori from a priest of our Society. Did he really ASK? I think he DID. Does the interpretation of this Canon apply to our case? It should, it seems it does, but maybe someone else will not agree... He agonizes! Well, since his doubt is an objective one, founded upon the law and upon the commentators, on facts and not on mere conjectures, he can be sure at least that the Church supplies in virtue of Canon 209.
We can and we should have recourse to the suppliance in case of positive and probable error in order to answer those adversaries who oppose our canonical reasoning. Let us tell them that because our case is supported on solid canonical grounds, on the old and the new legislation, on the practice of the Church, on the sentences of the Roman jurisprudence, on the doctrine of renowned authors, even on favorable opinions of Cardinals, Bishops and diocesan chanceries throughout the world, we can definitely affirm that in such doubt Ecclesia supplet iurisdictionem. The Vatican itself takes our arguments so seriously that in the Protocol of May 5, 1988, the Holy See called for a sanatio in radice AD CAUTELAM of the marriages celebrated by our priests without the required delegation. So for the Vatican there is a chance that such marriages are valid. Again, this doubt is positive and probable, and once more the Church supplies jurisdiction.
An interesting argument, but note the last paragraph which underlines Rome's opinion on the matter of the marriages which required a sanatio in radice 'ad cautelam' (a convalidation as a precaution). In other words, Rome does NOT recognise as a clear, certain and sure application of the law of supplied jurisdiction the marriags witnessed by the SSPX.
One SSPX lay member I talked to actually said that provision was requested by the SSPX so that their members would have no administrative difficulties having their marriages recognized by NO Bishops/ dioceses etc.
I'd need to find some sort of hard evidence to back that up, but just telling you what he conveyed to me.
At the least, I think it shows that Rome thinks the marriages are most likely valid and are granting the sanation to be on the safe side for particular cases that may or may not have met the legal criteria for common error.
I know a number of couples married by the SSPX who have had convalidations back in the mainstream. I'm not sure the gloss you put on Rome's actions is fair but who can tell? In the final analysis, that's why the Church has an ultimate court of appeal whose actions used to be expressed by the adage 'Roma locuta, causa finita.'
That's all well and good except Roma isn't locuta-ing on this matter. ;)They prefer to keep silent and keep their children in confusion.
However, as I stated, I think it is clear. If SSPX confessions were invalid Rome would have a moral obligation to make that crystal clear to everyone.
Steve, you're talking as if it matters to the SSPX what Rome says on the question of confessions. It hardly does, just like it didn't for the excommunications.
Can you imagine the SSPX accepting an agreement which required a full sanatio in radice for all their marriages, if that is what Rome decided was necessary? I can't.
Roma locuta, Econe discuta!
Ches,
I think it does matter to them. The fact is that Rome never made an official ruling on the excommunications. They simply issued a letter stating a certain automatic Canon applied to the case and ignored multiple obvious defenses of those involved. No trial was granted. Multiple Canon Lawyers have supported the contention that the excommunication did not automatically apply in the case since there were obvious defenses that applied.
But the "excommunications" are stuck in a sort of perpetual limbo, just as the Latin Mass was for 40 years. For 40 years Roma did not locuta and her children were left in confusion on the Mass.
I predict the exact same thing is happening with the "excommunications". It is all politics.
If Rome truly wanted to excommunicate the Archbishop and those involved and leave no doubt they would have issued a ferendiae sententiae excommunication and then been willing to give the Archbishop a full Canonical trial when he appealed.
You can only imagine the absolute headache and PR nightmare this would have involved for the Vatican, so they instead chose to issue a letter stating a general canon applies here, which it does, but ignore the 10,000 elephant in the room, namely the canonical provisions that state automatic excommunication does not apply in the the case the actor personally believed there to be a necessity, EVEN if he were to be factually in error.
As to the confession issue, this is not for the Society but for the Roman faithful who are in liturgical and faith deserts in many dioceses and want to know if they can avail themselves of a Traditional confessor when the SSPX is the only game in town. Rome would owe it to her flock to warn them of the real threat of eternal damnation by going to the Society for confession. Would you not agree?
Either this is the case, or Rome does not see the laity confessing there as a true threat to their souls.
BTW,
The Archbishop already agreed in principle to radical sanation to be on the safe side (ad cautalem, sp?). And that would most likely be the case again in any future agreement.
To be honest, Steve, I think the scenario you are presenting is entirely SSPX-centric.
Unless ABL could argue he was disobeying the divine law by not consecrating those men on that day, then, I am not convinced that the leniency inscribed in the law (of thinking it was a necessity) applies to him. How could it, when the authority to whom he might have appealed was the very authority which told him in explicit terms not to consecrate on 30 June 1988?
Personally, I suspect Rome saw the situation in a much more pragmatic and world-wide context: if ABL gets away with consecrating his own successors, what happens when Los Angeles decides to do the same, or Paris, or Westminster?
Good aim, wrong means: that's all I'm saying.
Canon Law gives an automatic excommunication for consecrating bishops without papal mandate. It then in another canon, lays out situations where automatic excommunications DO NOT apply. One is where the actor acted out of necessity, EVEN if that necessity were in good faith subjectively believed and EVEN if in reality there was no objective necessity.
The most that could be done in that situation is some sort of lesser penalty or no penalty but NOT an automatic excommunication.
At the LEAST, Rome would need to address the obvious Canons that scream out to be applied in this case and apply them one way or the other and make a determination.
Instead they cited the first canon and simply left all of the details alone. The reason? It's just what you said. They have to give the appearance of strict discipline to give example. At the same time, I doubt JPII, though most likely pressured from the liberals around him to go for the jugular, wanted to Canonically seal the Archbishop's fate. So he could split the baby by giving the appearance of a valid excommunication and satisying the liberals, while in reality not excommunicating the Archbishop. It was the perfect political move.
If you think this is crazy, we have a precedent. Pope Paul VI issues the New Mass expressing his wish that it be said everywhere. The entire Church then considers the TLM replaced and starts sayng the Novus Ordo. Traditional priests implore the Vatican to tell them if the TLM was ruly abrogated. 40 years of silence. JPII even called a commission who told him overwhelmingly that the TLM was never abrogated, but still silence. An "indult" is granted instead of revealing the ruling, hoping, again, to split the baby and satisfy both sides. Then finally our current Pope lets the cat out of the bag.
I would say what we've learned from this is when Rome is continually silent on a matter, pay attention. It most likely means they are playing their cards close to the chest for political reasons and when the time is right they will reveal them. They are willing to put up with confusion for a time rather than risk a tempest and potential liberal schism.
Steve,
You are right that Rome has a moral obligation to tell us if we are in danger of losing our souls - but does Pope Benedict, or anyone else in the Vatican, or most in the Church believe that anyone even goes to Hell anymore? And doesn't one of the Vatican II documents state that you will be saved if you are living according to your conscience?
Marian
The Church gives sufficient warnings elsewhere about going to priests who minister in a regular situation. She also has told us in what circumstances we can avail ourselves of the ministrations of the SSPX (to fulfil the Sunday obligation). To extrapolate major conclusions from the Church's not addressing every question we should ask is surely, however, unfair.
As for Hell, the pope reiterated the Church's teaching on Hell not that long ago, and the CCC contains many references to it:
http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=Hell&s=SS
Ches,
Rome only gives generalities. When pressed by a direct question from private correspondance as to the validity of Society confessions, Msgr. Perl of the PCED simply repeated the general canon requiring a priest have jurisdiction and then gave ONE situation where jurisdiction is supplied. He then discreetly drops the issue and never addresses the other Canons screaming out to be considered.
The text gives the impression that SSPX confessions are invalid except for genuine ignorance, BUT that technically was never stated.
Regardless, private correspondance to a layperson from the PCED is not an official ruling on the matter. As of yet Rome has made no such ruling and the Society's arguments stand.
This is not some sort of obscuire isolated situation either. The PCED had been directly asked the question, has regularized groups of priests and faithful in the Society's exact situation, etc. So it is on their radar and they have had every opportunity to make a definitive canonical ruling. They have chosen not to.
Maybe they figure that a definitive ruling would be simply disregarded anyway in the SSPX's official organs; in which case, it's better to leave the situation fluid on the basis of the common error you have argued.
But the clarification would not be for the priests of the Society's benefit but for the faithful that frequent their Chapels. Even one soul is priceless and if they thought even one soul would be lost they have an obligation to clarify.
I think, as I said before, that this issue is less on their radar than you think. Still, we must pray for the Roman dicasteries.
I tried to get an e-mail to you only to discover that in order to send an e-mail, you need to have an e-mail address! I understand that you don't have to publish on your "blog" what I am writing to ask you - so if you just answer me there with a yes or no, I would appreciate it.
Are you Pastor Aeternus on Fisheaters (I'm a professional lurker)? If so, I honestly do not know how to thank you, nor can I comprehend how the others are failing to comprehend what you are telling them.
What a grace this has turned out to be for me.
Marian
What exactly is "Pastor Aeternus" saying that others are failing to comprehend?
From a friend..
"The law does not specifically define what necessity is, but the general principles can be applied. What the quote from the SSPX source indicates is correct, however. Most authorities would say that "Necessity" is when in order to fulfill the First Law of the Church (i.e. The Salvation of Souls) one must materially violate the prescripts of the general law.
Regarding the Sacraments, "Necessity" only comes into play, legally, regarding the Consecration of Bishops done by Archbishop Lefebvre.
Common Error, Positive Doubt and other situations which induce supplied jurisdiction do not require a "necessity". Thus, while an SSPX priest might quip that he hears confessions "because there is a State of Necessity in the Church because of the Crisis", this is not an accurate reason. He hears confessions because people desire to confess to him, and they have every right under Canon Law to do so, as we've discussed before. From the 1983 Code this is an even further guarantee of validity, since for a just reason a Catholic may approach a suspended priest for confession (and since he may do so, clearly, jurisdiction must be supplied, because the Canon Law allows this situation and a reasonable person would know that a supended priest would not have faculties).
Simply because you have access to the sacraments from a priest with ordinary jurisdiction does not change the law and what makes the SSPX confessions and marriages valid.
Beyond this, there is the principle of epikeia, which is the benign and loose interpretaion of law, or the interpretation that a law does not apply because the law maker did not forsee a situation where the law would unjustly harm people. In this situation we assume that a just lawmaker would have made an exception to the law in this particular case. (The typical example: A mother who cannot take her child out of the house can presume that she is permitted to skip Mass on a Sunday for lack of anyone to care for her child).
There are plenty of good reasons to go to an SSPX priest rather than an FSSP priest for one's confession. So long as there can be a reasonable argument for Positive Doubt or Common Error or one has a just reason for going, the SSPX confessions are as valid as the FSSP.
Outside the SSPX I imagine you would find few if any present Canonical Authorities who have publicly applied the law in favor of the SSPX.
The fact is that even someone as well versed in Canon Law as Archbishop Burke did nothing during his tenure regarding the fairly significant SSPX chapel and school in his Archdiocese, nor did he ever warn these faithful that they were receiving invalid sacraments.
The technical details of the situation with the SSPX is simply either not of major concern to the most orthodox of bishops (most of whom have not gotten themselves involved with questions about the SSPX), or too touchy to make any kind of declarations.
If someone like Archbishop Burke (known for his desire to get involved in these kind of legal matters) has pussy-footted around the issue, one has to think that there is a reason for this.
There is simply no need, however, to get a living authority to specifically apply some very clear and basic canonical principles. Indeed it would be nice to have that security, but there is no need.
Indicating that one is unwilling to apply what the principles of Canon Law clearly demonstrate (from dozens of authorities) is like saying that because the moral Law forbids fornication, we only will to accept that it is wrong from someone in Life-Teen to fornicate if a modern authority could be cited to prove this.
You're simply not going to find anyone outside the SSPX who has written in their defense, because there is no desire, outside the SSPX priests themselves, to defend their principles."
Marian, I am not Pastor Aeternus. I dont follow Fisheaters, so I have no idea what PA says, but I will have a look.
Steve,
Your friend is wrong about necessity if he thinks necessity can be something not forseen by lawgiver even when the lawgiver is cognizant of the situation! The interpretation of the law made by the lawgiver has the force of law.
There are clearly no reasons to confess to an SSPX priest rather than an FSSP priest, except those dreamt up by the ideology of the SSPX.
As for the comparison with fornication and Teen Life, let's put it like this. From time immemorial, I'm certain every Father and theologian worth his salt would have said that if the See of Peter forbids an episcopal consecration to take place, then it must not take place. Archbishop Burke and others like him probably consider the 1988 consecrations i the same light. The burden of proof is not on them, but on the SSPX.
Still, the SSPX have such little interest in what anyone else in the Church has to say on this issue, or is interested only in interpeting the actions of everyone else (AB Burke in this case) as if they are all secretely quaking in their boots at how right the SSPX have been all along, that all the SSPX need do is hold their position, and see if it is finally vindicated.
His response:
""Necessity" is not the justification used confession to an SSPX priest. It was the justification for the 1988 Consecrations (which are not an element of this discussion). I only mentioned these to show a situation where "necessity" is actually mentioned in law.
"Necessity" is, again, not an argument for the validity of the Sacraments offered by the SSPX.
Regarding the Episcopal Consecrations, the Pope agreed in principle (following Protocol through Cardinal Ratzinger), to the consecration of at least one bishop by August 15. The reason the Archbishop went ahead with four bishop on June 30, 1988 was that the Cardinal had rejected all the names submitted by the Archbishop and asked for a new set of names. The archbishop did not trust the Cardinal to keep the promise of August 15th, fearing he would simply reject all of the new candidates sumbitted, so he went ahead. However, Archbishop Lefebvre was never formally forbidden from consecrating the bishops, and the Pope, or Cardinal Ratzinger was not opposed in principle to the consecration of bishops, only the bishops that were consecrated.
Simply put, no authority in the Church has declared the Sacraments offered by SSPX priests as invalid due to lack of jurisdiction, so it is not the burden of the SSPX to prove validity. In fact regarding marriage Canon Law itself states that marriage is presumed valid until proven absolutely invalid.
The Canons support the SSPX in their language. If it were such a serious matter that so many confessions and marriages were invalid, then the fact that the Holy See has never in an official way (only in private letters via a commission whio does not have the authority to decide such legal matters) declared that there is a problem with SSPX confessions and marriages. As proof of this, you see the most orthodox and legally skilled of bishops like Archbishop Burke saying zilch about the SSPX, when he said quite a bit about clearly schismatic groups and their sacraments.
Silence here speaks volumes."
Dear Steve,
Your friend raised the issue of necessity in the first post you sent from him, which is why I addressed. If he wants to raise the point of necessity, he has to face the fact that I'm not obliged to construe it in the same way. Indeed, I'm glad he did raise it, for it demonstrated the limits of the argument.
As to the second point, Cardinal Gantin issued a canonical warning (I think on 18 June 1988) not to consecrate. There was, then, no doubt about how the law should have been interpreted in this case. I might add that to cite the fact the Pope and Card. Ratzinger were not opposed in principle to the consecrations is a sophistry. They were always opposed to a consecration without papal mandate which is why ABL's threat to consecrate bishops, made at the ordinations of 1987 for which I was present, was taken so seriously.
Ultimately, the validity of confesions and marriage as administered by the SSPX is for the Church to judge definitively in law. I'm quite happy to leave the question mark as a question mark, a reasonable position, though every informal opinion I have sought on these matters has not been in favour of the SSPX.
As to the silence of Archbishop Burke and others, I am certain that Rome is trying to avoid any action that will force the cracks in the SSPX caucus to become open gulfs. For if Archbishop Burke tomorrow, as head of the Apostolic Signatura, reviewed these general principles and ruled heavily against the SSPX's position, we all know what would happen. The fact the SSPX must always interpret the behaviour of others as a proof of the righteousness of its own behaviour demonstrate's one of their biggest weaknesses: the reduction of everyone else's position to moral weakness, malice or doctrinal deviance.
Mr. Sudlow: I'd like your advice.
It is more convenient for my husband and I to go to the novus ordo Church (which is only two and a half miles away) than the SSPX (which is about fourteen miles). However, the two priests in the N. O. parish were ordained in 1961 and 1968 and both are imbued with liberal theology. In fact, the last time we went there, my husband remarked that the "homily" given by the priest ordained in 1961 was totally marxist. They both habitually leave out the Gloria every Sunday. I once asked the 1961 priest why, and he told me that if the Gloria cannot be sung it's not to be recited! I knew he was giving me a line but said nothing further to him.
The people (mostly seniors) dress like slobs, they either raise their hands or hold hands during the Our Father and the "Kiss of Peace" I leave to your imagination. There are other things.
My question is, how would you get yourself through this without getting angry? Also, how do I get over my revulsion about receiving Holy Communion from Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist?
Marian
Marian,
Without getting angry? I suppose it depends what you're getting angry about. They shouldn't leave out the Gloria, but it wouldn't make me angry if a priest did. I would disapprove, yes, but I wouldn't lose my peace over it.
My attitude these last few years has always been to try to look beyond the appearances to the reality of the Mass. If the other members of the congregation are slobs, then just be with as if you were at an old Mass surrounded by slobs, vagrants, beggars or slum dwellers (it happens in some places!). Ignorant and 'slobby' as they are, they are loved by God, not for their 'slobbiness' but because God is good. The same goes for the priests. If they do not fully understand what they do at the altar, you at least do and can acknowledge it, and pray God they are enlightened. I cannot comment on their orthodoxy; it very much depends what you mean by Marxist (for some people, that means being in favour of welfare!). If you want to speak to them, do it temperately and show that you respect them.
As for the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, if the Church has authorised them to distribute the Eucharist, then you do not have to 'like it' but, if you cannot avoid them, see it as an exercise in trimming your own passions to what God has provided for you through the Church. But make sure you kneel or make a big genuflection before receiving. People notice, and it is a good example.
There are many things in the Church which we would rather see change, but if we fight a last ditch battle over every single one, we will never get anywhere. Hold the line, set a good example, and that, in my view, is the best way forward not only for you but for the parish which sounds lilke it is decrepit.
Hope that helps.
Mr. Sudlow: Thank you. Yes, it helps a lot.
Out of everything that you wrote in your "treatise", the line that strikes me the most is ". . .they will end up like every individual who has loved the Church so much he wanted her to conform to his own image of the Church." I don't know so much it's an "image" as it is the Church I once knew.
It's my PRIDE. How insidious it is.
Another question: In my diocese, you are supposed to stand after the Agnus Dei instead of kneeling. We usually kneel when we go to that Mass. I suppose I should obey my lawful Bishop and stand?
Thanks again. God bless you!
Marian
One more thing I forgot. . .you said to kneel or genuflect when I received Holy Communion but we were told that in the Diocese of Spokane we were just to make a "slight inclination" of the head. I know that the Holy Father is trying to encourage kneeling and more reverence, so should I follow my chief Shepard or my minor one?
Marian
Ches,
I thought that you recognized Rome allows attendance at SSPX Masses. Why would you encourage Marian to attend her local Marxist Novus Ordo when even Rome would not deny her a TLM at the Society Chapel?
From Steve Sanborn..
If Sudlow doesn't "lose his peace" over the abuse of the mass, then I would stay clear away from him. His opinion is worthless. Where does he get his energy to come down on the SSPX while being willing to co-exist with the modernist liberals?
PS. Welfare may not fall into the "Marxist" category, but it is certainly socialist.
You might pass this on to Marian. If she saw a bunch of naked people on the altar at mass, would she leave? Because it would not be as bad as the abuses she stays for, albeit in a disgruntled manner... This is a spiritual blindness people have. They accept direct abuse of Our Lord in the Eucharist and His mass, but if you go to a lesser more visible offense, like say nudists in the chapel... suddenly they see very clearly.
Marian, Until the pope actually makes any universal ruling on these points (standing or inclination of the head), then, yes, I would say that you should excise your freedom within the dictates of whatever the local law is.
In my view, those laws (the standing and slight inclination of the head) are inadequate, but again, I would not lose my peace over the situation. Obey the rule that is there with the spirit of the Church - that is the key - and that way, you exercise both faith and obedience.
Steve No. 1 - (don't know if you are also the second Steve)
Marian asked me a precise question about getting herself through her local parish Mass without getting angry or feeling revulsion. I'm not encouraging her to go anywhere in particular; I'm just answering the question she posed me.
Steve No. 2 - (Steve Sanborn)
Firstly, a point of order: you comment here solely by my good graces, so if you send another discourteous comment such as the one above, you will find no more comments published. Keep a civil tongue, and you'll find I'm very happily to discuss your opinions. Behave like a bar bore, and I'll treat you like a bar bore. I hope that's clear.
I'm not quite sure what you expect here. I criticize the SSPX - well, in fact, I point out where I think they are wrong but, I hope, always in a spirit of charity - because I know their case very well. How on earth am I supposed to come down on a parish thousands of miles away on the basis of a comment from a correspondent?
Your 'welfare as socialist' comment illustrates perfectly my point about these classifications. The very notion that welfare is socialist is itself a profoundly ideological interpretation of state subventions.
As to your nudist comment, I don't know what you're thinking. Nudists in the sanctuary would firstly be a sin against religion, not against modesty. More illogical thinking on your part.
Remember, Steve, answer courteously, or there is no discussion.
Ches,
A clarification. There are two Steves. Myself and Steve Sanborn (SS). I wrote the first post.
SS e-mailed me his comments privately.
I then posted SS's comments because I wanted your reaction, though in hindsight, I should have edited it, because he most likely never intended to have it posted "as is".
My apologies..
Thanks, Steve. If Steve Sanborn wants his comments removed, then let me know.
I said...
"The same goes on with the "excommunications". A general rule is stated that consecrating bishops without papal mandate brings about an automatic excommunication. But the obvious exceptions in Canon Law to this penalty are ignored and never discussed.
This is why I think it is politics. Just as the Mass being de facto abrogated for 40 years, Rome keeping silence, and then Rome finally publicly stating that it was never abrogated. I think you'll see the same move on the ecommunications. I think the Vatican is silent and moving slowly because of the fierce liberal opposition to the Society among the Bishops.
In the future you will finally see the exceptions in Canon Law applied to the '8 consecrations and the "excommunications" declared null.
07 January 2009 07:11
Ches said...
You may be right about the confessions. Let's hope that you are! But I'm not at all confident your prediction about the consecrations will come about.
07 January 2009 08:21
Steve said...
We shall see. A million rosaries, have a lot of power! ;)
Posted at 5:03 PM...
All signs now seem to indicate that the removal, withdrawal, or annulment of the excommunications of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre (+ 1991), Bishop Antonio de Castro Mayer (+ 1991), and of the four Bishops consecrated by them for the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX) in Ecône, Switzerland, on June 30, 1988 is imminent. The Papal act on the matter has almost certainly been signed, and it will be made public shortly: read Surprise 2 - UPDATED; and Surprise 1.
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